lets hope the other doctors fail then... (good chances here lol)
I am tanning right now, Pone, on my balcony! I have my laptop wired with me but it is kind of hard to see anything the sunshine is so bright! I aim for 3 hours nude tanning today...

I thought the Leptin Rx did not favor exercise...

I understand you want to know what is wrong, but the cure is pretty much the same, that is the weird thing! Maybe a diagnosis can help the fine tuning... and make one more disciplined to change when one sees it black and white on paper... but I honestly think otherwise it does not matter that much -but that is just me I could be wrong. But still.. exercise when one is not well is probably not clever. I exercise 40 min. once a week but now I did nothing in two weeks and I do not stress about it at all, I feel great. I jump on the trampoline a few minutes a day, sure, but that is about it. I need to heal too, you see.

Anyways every step in the right direction is a good thing, and Rome was not built in one day. I think it is great you are changing things up! We sure need to do it in our own pace

 

Yeah, me too. I eat raw onions almost every day, I love them! With meat and fish, they always fit. They and seaweed are about all veggies I eat in winter and I am no veggie fan in summer either.. I just do wild herbs and wild berries mostly.. with some cucumber and cabbage thrown in. Onions from our garden keep all winter long here when kept dry in the basement so they are kind of in season always

 

Dr Rosedale has a short blip on his web site claiming that he doesn't think dietary Ribose will enter the cell:
https://drrosedale.tenderapp.com/kb...oken=c7a3586be5dd30e86b9014d93930ec362d87c1a8

His claim is that it is better to take Benfotiamine which will convert to Ribose.

Any comment on any of the above?

It seems to me you would never find Benfotiamine in anything other than pill form, and it is pretty hard to make that cost effective for a metabolically significant amount of energy supplementation (e.g., the bio equivalent of 30 grams of D-Ribose per day)?

I am definitely seeing faster recovery after exercise using D-Ribose, and how is that possible if it is not entering the cell and being used to make ATP? I also see a lot of research has been done on cardiac muscle benefitting from dietary D-Ribose, and again how would that be possible if there was not some of it getting into the cell? Exercise physiologists have demonstrated muscle recoveries post-exercise with Ribose > 300%. I don't understand how that is possible if Ribose is not entering the cell?

It is still an interesting question how much of dietary Ribose goes into the cell for energy production, and how much of it just sits around in the blood and is disposed of by glycation with proteins or other means?

 

Another study on D-Ribose glycating proteins more rapidly than Glucose:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/221774391_D-ribose_in_glycation_and_protein_aggregation
Full text link is on the right side.

This study claims that when you take enough Ribose to induce hypoglycemia that they can measure increased glycation of serum proteins at the same time. This is what I hate about nutrition. Every study you can find that says a substance can save your life, someone else publishes a study saying it will kill you.

The researchers recommend that you if you are ingesting Ribose for any therapeutic reasons, that you should track your glycated serum proteins over time. I found a Labcorp test 001693 CPT Code 83036 for this here:
https://www.labcorp.com/wps/portal/...BJUzNPNE4yTjY2ODAvdmlld1Rlc3Q!/?testId=407963

I'm not clear on the difference between A1C and what the above test shows. I guess A1C shows glucose attaching to hemoglobin, whereas the test above shows glucose attaching to protein.

 

I like your line of inquiry here. How might we deal with each of the three scenarios?

 

Benfotiamine requires concomitant use of high dose B vitamins especially B 1. to get D ribose to work. I dont buy Rosedale's argument. many studies have shown D Ribose gets into the cytosol and into mitochondria in the cardiac literature on heart failure cases. Mushrooms are the best B vitamin supplement out there. In T2D with neuropathy and nephropathy high-dose thiamine and benfotiamine therapy increased transketolase expression in renal glomeruli, increased the conversion of triosephosphates to ribose-5-phosphate, and strongly inhibited the development of microalbuminuria.

 

1) If my pancreas is weak, then I suppose I just need to avoid things that spike glucose. I kind of doubt that this is my issue, but you would think the Endo would at least want to know that?!

2) If I am insulin resistant, then I have to work on supplements that raise insulin sensitivity, as well as lower carbs.

3) If I only overproduce glucose between meals (and definitely in the morning I am getting above 120 glucose without eating), then maybe I have to look for what is overstimulating glucagon release and treat that. I might also look at glucagon suppressors of some kind?

Regarding 3), I have noticed that if I take a short nap my glucose falls from 95-to-100 into the 78-to-80 range. Within one hour of waking I am back to 95 to 100. Any ideas on what this might suggest? Is this cortisol? I feel like the Endo should have more interest in following through on clues like that, and combine with tests to at least understand what the ultimate causes are for these symptoms.

If you don't separate things out, you end up just throwing buckets of water in the direction of heat, instead of right onto the flame.

 

Dali, you will enjoy this article, which is by far the best explanation I have ever read for how insulin behaves, and what insulin resistance actually means:

http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/content/85/1/69.long

One of the main points being made there is that most of diabetes is about the liver overproducing glucose and NOT about tissues failing to absorb glucose. He gives example that muscles absorb glucose through GLUT4 rather than insulin alone. By implication, what insulin resistance actually represents is a failure of the system to downregulate glucagon when presented with higher and higher levels of insulin. That also leaves open that many people with normal insulin levels - or lower-than-normal insulin levels - might also see high fasting glucose simply because their endogenous insulin fails to regulate glucose production in the liver.

Assuming you do not have high persistent levels of insulin, and insulin resistance in the liver, what might cause glucagon production to be overstimulated? I'm wondering if it might make sense at taking things that downregulate glucagon.

P.S., Not sure this belongs in a D-Ribose thread. If you know of a better place for it I can move it.

 

Thank for this. I did enjoy the article. So is there a difference between over production of glucose by the liver and insulin resistance at the liver? Interesting that fasting hyperglycemia is not due to tissue IR. What methods and or treatment other than exogenous insulin are available to us to reduce glucose production by the liver. Please keep digging. My a1C and FBG have been creeping up for the last 6-8 months after 2 years of excellent control. Not sure why.

 

That article really throws my understanding of things into a dark well. I thought I was starting to understand insulin resistance, and now it is morphing into something else.

It looks like the primary disorder is the rate of glucose produced by the liver. Is this because the liver does not pay attention to insulin, or is it that the pancreas fails to downregulate glucagon when insulin is high? It's not clear to me. Even more frustrating to me is that the Endocrinologists never try to characterize the disease in the actual patient. Why don't they try to measure endogenous insulin patterns and dietary insulin responses more carefully? Don't they care that a given patient overproduces glucagon and has normal insulin, versus a different patient with high insulin resistance?

The article seems to be saying that when your glucose jumps high, your muscles and liver are still uptaking glucose at a steady rate. In fact, the implication of one of his graphs is that at higher glucose levels your muscles are uptaking *more* glucose not less.

If that is the case, when we take things to make us more insulin sensitive, like alpha lipoic acid, all we are doing is increasing the amount of glucose our muscles take out of circulation:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8922368

We aren't actually doing anything to adjust the basic imbalanced level of glucose production in the liver. So, like you, I am wondering what substances will directly lower glucose production in the liver? I remember reading somewhere that green coffee extract does that. Others?

 

In seeking actionable measures I try to not only think of substances. I think that this is a signaling issue. Where is communication broken and how do we address it. I suspect it is related to cortisol. I have been looking at cortisol research lately and it is deep.
Your Endo thinks their job is to maintain lab values. From info you have posted I am sure you Endo thinks you are fine
If you want to swim in deeper water get the 23andme test.

 

this is where insulin is in a circadian mismatch. It is Leptin Part Deux blog.

 

I read today that fructose is seven times more likely than glucose to glycate with proteins and cause harmful AGE glycation products. So Ribose is apparently not unique in its tendency to glycate proteins.

That gives some sense to the Perfect Health Diet recommendation to greatly limit fructose intake, and probably one could apply their guidelines to D-Ribose intake levels as well.

 

PHD is a recipe for disaster..........

 

There are too many different points made in PHD to accept a generalization. You have to be specific.

I assume your big point of disagreement is on carb percentages?

All I know is the closer I get to ketogenic, the more I crash, and it's not about how many ketones I am producing. It's the diuretic effects of the diet that destroy me.

 

No.........food is not primoridal.........electrons are.

 

electrons, electrons, electrons.....

we need to get this message.....

 

Good for you for quitting coffee! I need that inspiration

 

I dropped coffee and got some sleep improvement, so it was the right thing to do. But I still longed for the warm hearty beverage, and herbal tea wasn't cutting it. But I found what I wanted in roasted, ground, cocoa beans. The theobromine in it is very gentle, did not disturb my sleep, and the flavonoids heal glucocorticoid receptors, according to one paper I read.

And it tastes fantastic!

I like d-ribose; I've only been taking it for a couple of months, but I do feel it helps. Strange thing though -- it's so SWEET. And I no longer like such!

 

I've cut it out in the late afternoon and sleep has improved but those evenings are tough!
High dose B complex is helping a bit for me.