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Would any of you like to chime in here?

Discussion in 'Cold Thermogenesis' started by Jack Kruse, Apr 3, 2012.


  1. I admire your willingness to post there at all!! I'm a heavy lurker but I don't post alot. I don't know why. It's funny seeing the big names acting like they are on a playground. Some of them, like Emily Deans, are intelligent people, but then when I read threads like those, I just lose so much respect. And some of them really need to get their facts straight! Argh.
     
  2. ColdBren

    ColdBren New Member

    People are so tough on the internet. I was actually suprised that only women "defended my honor"....makes be a bit discouraged. Anyway, it is interesting hearing the discussions, even the confrontational ones because there were some good points on both sides.
     

  3. Yeah, it's definitely important that we all keep an open mind. It's certainly true that nobody out there has the truth 100% correct. Dr. Kruse openly admits this on the podcast released today. It's just common sense. But I really do believe he is trying to help people and would not willingly hurt anyone. Besides that, though, before I have undergone any of his recommendations, I have thought long and hard about them for myself. My actions are ultimately my responsibility. And personally, as someone who has read every single post and comment multiple times, I am quite comfortable with following his recommended protocol. The moment I feel worried, I'll stop. But quite honestly, after a long hard day at work, I think to myself, "God I cannot wait to get home and pack myself in ice!!" And what do you know, I instantly feel better.



    Ice on, people!!!
     
  4. AKMan

    AKMan New Member

    What's your user name over there, if you don't mind? I'm curious to read what you wrote.
     
  5. jbond56

    jbond56 New Member

    Argueing at thefreedanimal is almost always a waste of time. Most of the time all you get are arguments from selective obeservation or reading. Basically they ignore your stronger arguments and pounce on your weaker arguments. So you're forced to argue point by point and that just gets you buried in hundreds of posts. Dr k.h. likes to do this. i.e. 2 hours in 50 degree will kill you. In an extreme case this can be true. Can you recreate this in your house with ice and a bathtub. As someone that has been hauling 60 pounds of ice upstairs everyday this week, I know how stupid that statement is in the context of CT. Notice how Dr k.h. feels the need to appeal to autority to suppourt his uninformed opinion. Any navy doc will tell you... I'm and alpine hiker and scuba diver...
     
  6. Birdy

    Birdy New Member

    90th percentile on the MCAT's. Didn't about half of us here get that? Oh, we were roaring over that.
     
  7. Birdy

    Birdy New Member

    Oh, and the comment by someone who has had like a whole year of genetics. Another gut-buster., and not in the leaky-gut sort of way.
     
  8. ColdBren

    ColdBren New Member

    AKman, I just chimed in as Brenda over there....I wasn't even really on topic and just took issue with his arrogance.....it was the first time I ever heard of him. Then that other doc annoyed me to because he kept knocking Dr. K, but clearly never took the time to even read what he says. Richard is definitely a wounded soul, who attacks when an idea gets too close to his weakness.
     
  9. Birdy

    Birdy New Member

    Yes, Dick really ripped into me over there, too, so I usually avoid the place. He is a wounded soul and he still leads with his wounds, how many years now? The wounded folks just need to get over it, to suck it up and quit vomiting all over everyone, especially women. Just saying'. He was very nice IRL.
     
  10. MamaGrok

    MamaGrok New Member

    quit vomiting all over everyone, yep. I bet most of them are very nice IRL. Some people constantly forget that on the other side of the internet are real people.




    Oo, wow, hit the hammer right on the head. I used to gt caught in this in internet debates on religion when I was a lot younger, and learned to stop letting people get me sidetracked on stupid stuff. Forgot to apply it here. But it's a LOT harder to implement correctly on a forum than in a combox.
     
  11. MamaGrok

    MamaGrok New Member

    For those no longer following the debacle, here's a great post by Ray Cronise that all should read:



     
  12. MamaGrok

    MamaGrok New Member

    And:




    Richard is going to do another blog on his own experiences with CT, and is inviting Ray to give some initial input, and then to comment extensively, so keep watching FTA if you're interested.
     
  13. Lyndra

    Lyndra Gold

    MamaGrok - thanks for the updates - the thread was getting too much for me to follow. I appreciate seeing what Ray has to say.
     
  14. LinD

    LinD New Member


    Yes, yes!



    T-shirt idea:



    Member of Kruse Polar Bear Club
     
  15. AKMan

    AKMan New Member

    I second that, and when I went through that thread again, I found more Cronise nuggets. We should consolidate these to a new thread. From the last posting, it looks like they are starting a new blog on Free the Animal with some actual constructive talk and not just Jack-bashing.



    "You are correct. The generic number I came up with about three years ago when working with Tim on The 4 Hour body is that the energy to melt, and raise to body temperature, 66 lbs of ice = 1 lb of fat (3500 Kcals).



    later I did a one dimensional solution to Founier’s law and then a more sophisticated model using mathematic that took into account skin thickness, adipose tissue, and muscle.



    It turns out that sitting in 27C water (80F), which is where mild cold stress begins, burns about 2.4x RMR or for the average 100 watt human, or about 240 watts. This was compared to actual measurements of metabolism that range about 230-270W, so I considered it solved. (btw, using watts here as that takes into account time so that 1 watt is .86 kcal/hour ).



    Air gets MUCH more complex as does the overall metabolic response to extended time with mild cold stress.



    Because of vasoconstriction and vasodilation (happens in SECONDS not minutes), the body is VERY good at conserving heat. This is why Tim and I took slightly different routes. I was using overall chronic mild cold stress and Tim was trying to engage and recruit BAT. I think that the bigger picture is that overall we see fundamental metabolic changes as a response to cold stress.



    Total time in ice baths is not the key. Cold stress activates the basic genetic protective pathways, just like the biological stress of lifting weights causes muscle to grow in response.



    Wim has seen and documented (in a hospital as part of a controlled study) muted response to direct endotoxin injection. It’s the ability to override the immune system and control cortisol that seems to be key. He also had a PET scan recently in Holland and we measured BAT and total heat output. He produces about 4.5 times the heat of the average 20 year old male in the study.



    Hope that helps…



    Ray



    AND:

    Endotoxin is simply a “fragment” of a virus that essentially mounts the same immune response, but does not cause disease. It is the part of the virus, the protein coat, that your immune system seeks and destroys. As such, it’s safe to do (no chance of getting the disease), but your body still mounts a defense.



    Injections are like going from zero to two days sick in minutes. Normally one gets severe headache, fever, cramps, etc… Wim was able to mentally boost his cortisol level after the beginning of the headache and completely shunt the immune response.



    For the record, this went through committee, was done in a control setting and there was plenty of data taken.



    Some papers are in progress now. a case study can be found here:



    http://bit.ly/HmdWIN



    hope that helps. There are many very solid projects out there on all of this. It didn’t start this year. When I began research in 2008, I found dozens of papers. A lot of the mild cold stress work was done in the 50s and 60s to support caloric needs for hostile military environments like remote outposts, high altitude aircraft, and water landings. >


    The first patents on cold stress and weight loss are in the mid to late 80s. It’s not new, but it was new to me at the time I used it to lose weight. Once I started digging into the science I was pleased to find out that there was even more work being done on the genetic pathways of thermal regulation. As I discuss on my blog these are all related to the sirtuins and up regulation of PGC1-α.



    We are way beyond this being new. What hasn’t been done widespread is simply deployment. I’ve been doing various things over the last 2 years to make it much more “enjoyable” (LOL) for the masses. It turns out you don’t have to do extreme to get the benefits and that is what wim and I are teaching.



    Ray





    AND:



    I don’t want to spoil the effort of some very hard-working researchers in The Netherlands, so suffice it to say, they measured BAT and most importantly total heat output. I separate the two, because as I have covered in early posts on my site, BAT is only a high-density of mitochondria; there are mitochondrion in every living cell – it’s the power plant for ATP as you probably know.



    What happens there in terms of substrate utilization and production of ATP is a symphony of reactions. There are over 1000 identified genes encoding mitochondrial proteins – recently 240 listed that have association with disease in Humans when mutated.



    This is complex, despite what anyone might try to say. I don’t think anyone “understands” exactly what is going on – I am certain wim and I don’t.



    With that said, you don’t have to know how the watch works to tell time and Wim has definitely cracked through some key elements that have repeatable, demonstrated, and documented performance. I have done similar things in my own work.



    At this time I have been working with some of the nations best physicians, anthropologists, diet “gurus,” biochemists and biologists to attempt to get us all paddling in a similar direction.



    For example, many critique my TEDMED talk at being vague, and lacking detail. The reason it is structured the way it is had to do more with what they wanted – a simple story that launched interest in the subject – not a PhD dissertation defense. TEDMED and TED are the only two true TED events. TEDx events can be put on by anyone and anyone can attend – just pay the fee to the organization. Great talks still come out of them, so I am not casting dispersion, but people are not quite as limited in the talk.



    My goal was to get national attention on the balance between diet/exercise/thermal load – to quote another comment here who hit the nail squarely on the head:



    ” Temperature could be as important to body composition (and maybe overall health) as diet and exercise. It’s amusing to think of all the nutrition experts that have quoted the first law of thermodynamics, and then completely overlook heat, which is what thermodynamics is all about.” (john)



    What I wanted as a goal is to attract media and other scientist’s attention to this obvious connection. It’s been phenomenal and there is a LOT of work happening worldwide on the subject. I realize that this Paleo-conteversary seems like it is exploding, but truth be told, there is a much quieter revolution happening all over. I get media requests and emails/calls now far more frequently and it has even helped some of the earlier researchers in Europe get much-diserved attention.



    so, I can say that even BREATHING correctly has impact on HDL/LDL, there are diet impacts and mild cold stress effects. It’s not a simple BAT/Mitochondrion issue. It’s not a simple hormone issue. I am NOT saying that many people have not “learned to tell time,” but rather than the fundamental problem is deeper.



    I am grateful to Richard for allowing me to comment extensively here (I asked/introduced first) but I want to stick with the constructive challenge that moves science and people forward. There is so much we have left to learn – so much we don’t know. I think it’s a sign of strength to say I don’t know when you don’t.



    I thought I would take the time to stomp a few misconceptions here, so that we don’t throw the baby out with the (ice cold) bathwater



    As time permits, I’ll comment more on 1) length of exposure and adaptation. It turns out that fat in humans is not there as an insulator and some very sound science has been done on this. It is an energy store and has little effect on survival (it’s not seal blubber).



    If you take a look at “The New Eye On Bat” I cover some of the exercise-induced work that was done very recently. Also look at Ch-CH-Changes and The Heat is On. There are a few more there that cover adaptation and insulation…



    hope that helps and thanks to Richard for allowing me to post here. I hope everyone will redirect some energy into how to make this a positive addition to what you’re already doing.



    Ray



    Reply Ray Cronise // Apr 8, 2012 at 10:56



    ps…the 2) should be adaptation.



    Reply Richard Nikoley // Apr 8, 2012 at 11:05



    Ray:



    Thanks a lot. Great stuff and I think a lot of us are interested in knowing more.



    I plan to put up a new post on Monday (tomorrow) with a few of my own questions and observations, primarily revolving around CT. It might be best to withold additional input until then, if only because at 850 or so comments, it’s getting more than a bit cumbersome at this point.



    If you’d like to email me with some suggestions as to what questions to ask and issues to raise for that new post I will be delighted to include it so that as you say, we can move this forward as constructively as possible.



    Thanks again.



    Reply
     
  16. Croak

    Croak New Member


    Just keep in mind what Cronise is trying to do is markedly different than what Kruse is. Totally different rabbit holes. Seems to me that Cronise is all about losing weight (and getting a cut from 4-Hour Body sales?), Kruse is all about longevity, with weight loss just being a side-effect of optimal.



    So don't take Cronise's tips on how to CT as gospel, keep in mind that he's coming at it from a different angle than Kruse...and frankly, the man takes lukewarm baths compared to what some of us are doing.
     
  17. MamaGrok

    MamaGrok New Member

    Seems like his cautions are well-worded. Basically, water above 60, etc., anyone can play with and not worry a bit. And sadly, without extreme effort, that's lower than I can get my water down to right now, anyway, even with 25lb of ice melted into it!



    Below, that, take caution, and that's where the first CT potocol post helps us.
     
  18. Evo Mama

    Evo Mama New Member


    I think these are GREAT guidelines for those who might be interested in CT for weightloss only, especially those whose diets are not necessarily Paleo or "clean." If a person of questionable health jumped into a 50 degree tub for an hour, their response is going to be quite different from mine.



    I think having a step by step protocol is also great. I still wish that Dr. K would consider having someone edit important posts like that one, so that it's really easy to read and follow. Most if not all of us on here take the time and energy to wade through such posts to get an understanding of the protocol, but I think having a clear Step 1: Do this for ______ time, or until ________; Step 2: Do this ... I know all of that information is in there, but you have to enjoy going on a few tangents (while fighting off the grammar police) to get to the nitty gritty. I worry about those not willing/able to do this work. Having a clear protocol spelled out would be great for people.



    I'm glad Richard opened up the conversation. I'm looking forward to what he writes about CT next.
     
  19. MamaGrok

    MamaGrok New Member

    I heartily agree, Evo Mama.
     
  20. Adriana

    Adriana New Member

    It's fantasic that Ray Cronise is particpating actively in the diacussions of CT on www.freetheanimal.com. Thanks Ray!
     

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