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veggies and carbs in the UK

Discussion in 'The Epi-Paleo Diet' started by Matt Fowler, Aug 5, 2020.

  1. Daulatwant

    Daulatwant Kipras

    2 cups of lean meat and 1 cup of tallow will be about 20% calories from protein and 80% fat calories. About 2500kcal total.
    Matt Fowler and Michael CULLEN like this.
  2. Thank you for your reply. What else do you eat besides the meat? I have a mitogen panel but dont use it because Jack recommends professional instruction based on your individual context. Do you stand in front of it every evening or do you just have it on in the room? When I was 2 I drank a bottle of antibiotics by accident! All of my health problems are caused by big pharma "medicines".
  3. Anne V

    Anne V Silver

    Hi Matt,
    oysters, salmon, prawns and.beef, calf liver , lamb, sometimes raspberries
    had wild seabass , bacon, eggs , a bit of raw milk cheese. but not at the moment.
    the light in the room is candles @night red bulb as the bedside lamp , iris on the laptop.
    i have red infrared panel , but i do not use at the moment as spending time
    outside as much as possible.
    Matt Fowler likes this.
  4. Anne V

    Anne V Silver

    maybe you could try to eat only beef and lamb , and water for 2/3 weeks and see if u feel better.
    no carbs at all (including broccolis :) )
    i do not stand in front of anything, it is summer , i go out in the sun :) make sure that max skin expo and eyes
    get the sun. i use candles at night , and red bulb in bedroom bedside table.
    get up for sunrise then day sun then sunset.
    that is the most important part of the diet. the light.
    Matt Fowler and Daulatwant like this.
  5. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK New Member

    Carb wise over the summer I've had a wide variety of seasonal fruits and veg, eaten in the right light cycle they don't seem to be a problem, particularly if I use the circadian rhythm of insulin sensitivity. We are more insulin sensitive in the morning after the night fast, and carbs will be more likely to go to the peripheral tissues than to fat storage, so that is when I aim to eat most of my carbs. If I was underweight (in a parallel universe ......:rofl:) I'd add a few more later.....

    Musings :D

    Large amounts of fat can be a problem to health, for example I don't think we can properly evaluate any high fat/low fat diet paradigm without taking into account coupled and uncoupled haplotypes, individual context and the environment - and season - in which the food is eaten. The extremes are polar bear in the Arctic, lion at the equator, and evaluating the seasonal nuances of being omnivore, not carnivore, at a latitude between the Arctic and the equator. Because its summer I'm not drawn to fatty food at the moment, I'm mostly just using small amounts of coconut oil, butter and olive oil, and getting some fat from fish and lean meats. In winter I will be eating more fats,and will need less water than I do now.

    Energy and Epigenetics 4:
    "Food is directly tied to thermoregulation via a natural physical law that is ingrained in the process of evolution. Food is codified by the photoelectric effect as well."

    Eating high fat low carb in the UK winter is one thing, in summer without mitigation (say by CT) it could be a mismatch, particularly in areas that see the highest temps, such as London.

    "Cold conditions always call for ketosis and fat burning as optimal fuel. This is why winter time and fat burning are yoked in nature. Foods are also yoked to temperature in this fashion. "

    At our latitude, in the wild, animals would be lean in spring and summer. They don't need to make the same amount of fat to generate heat until later in the light cycle as temps drop and then in preparation for winter. It may be that a higher fat approach in summer is right for someone's n=1, but without knowing the context, as a hack it doesn't come without risk that might be worth looking at first.

    For example, there are issues about potential levels of dehydration that a particular location may be causing:

    "When a cell becomes dehydrated the temperature of the organism also rises. When this happens a cell loses its ability to burn fat and it will seek out carbohydrates."

    "Exercise in the heat (40C) increases muscle glycogen oxidation and reduces whole body-fat oxidation (Febbrio et al 1994) in comparison to the same exercise intensity performed at 20C. When temperature rises, serum lactate levels rise."

    This kind of makes sense as a stress response to heat - glycogen usage would quickly free up water that is bound to the glycogen molecule. Elite athletes would presumably take longer to produce lactate - but someone could already have high lactate before doing even moderate exercise in less intense heat, and that could be a different ballgame......

    Or it may be that if there was a particular reason to do a higher fat or more carnivore eating plan in summer, I might think about something to mitigate, such as say regular CT to control lactate, if my diet, or any situation I found myself in was triggering a stress response :

    "Using consistent cold thermogenesis while drinking water, will lower lactate levels across the board in all conditions. This is why Cold Thermogenesis is primordial in all stress responses for humans."

    As a treatment, or whilst say planning a move to a better environment, I'd do the CT. But I'm not freezing my arse off to mitigate eating a high fat or excess protein diet out of season, when there's yummy seasonal foods up for grabs. :D

    Another issue with too much protein is iron - as omnivores eating seasonally, there would be times when humans at this latitude would be eating more in the way of seasonal fruits, roots, greenery, and mushrooms and less in the way of red meat. (We would also not have just eaten muscle meat, which might be a separate problem .....). This ties in with vitamin C aiding iron absorption (OK if you are genuinely anaemic, but otherwise could be bad news).

    "Iron plays an important role in normal brain metabolism. It is a co-factor to enzymes involved in neurotransmitter synthesis and metabolism, and a component of cytochromes essential for energy production in mitochondria. However, iron reacts with oxygen, resulting in the production of neurotoxic free hydroxyl radicals responsible for membrane lipid peroxidation and accumulation of lipofuscin in neurons."

    For you if you are still in the same place in London, with a heavy red meat diet, you may be accumulating more iron than you need, and in terms of membrane lipid peroxidation and lipofuscin, it may not be the optimal choice. (Its not right for me for different reasons).

    There's also the PUFA issue -

    "Remember, you have already learned that chlorine, fluorine and bromide all act as dielectric blockers in water in the EMF series."

    "Remember in EMF 7 that PUFAs are ingested in excess, they act as dielectric blockers inside the cell membrane?" :eek:

    In terms of animal fat, its what the animal ate ... in an entirely naturally fed wild animal, the PUFA levels would be different to a conventionally reared one of the same species. (Wild boar versus farmed pig for example). In the wild the levels of PUFA (and other fats) could also vary seasonally in many animals (for example if someone ate squirrel, if it was about to go into hibernation it would be loaded with more PUFA than when it came out of hibernation lean). In the UK the beef and lamb is less likely to have been grain fed, but I class pork the same as chicken ...

    John Schumacher and Matt Fowler like this.
  6. thats a lot of tallow! How would you eat that amount? Just thought of its making feel sick. Do you just cook with it or do you physically eat that amount?
  7. Thank you Anne! Do you feel like youre improving after all those changes? Where do you live? Are you in a hot country? Last week we had some unusually hot weather over here in the UK and I actually felt like I was improving lol

    So youre pretty much carb free apart from the strawberries? How do you eat your fats? Im working up to going completely carnivore for a few weeks but still trying to work out how much fat I need. Thankyou :)
  8. Hi Sue, thanks for your reply. Hope youre well :)

    I saw you mentioned haplotypes - do you know where to get tested in the UK? I really want to find out my haplotype so I know whether I have to move abroad or not. Im kind of hoping I do haha
  9. wow, lots of interesting info there I would never have considered. Thank you. Do you class pork as the same as chicken because pigs arent grass fed?
  10. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    I've felt sick from eating lots of tallow but I can eat a half pound of raw suet with salt and it doesn't get gross. Grass fed suet can be bought from a local ranch for about half the price by weight of buying tallow from a grocery store where I live.

    Also, if you can get raw butter, or raw cream and you shake it in a jar until the butter separates, raw butter is so much better than pasteurized butter I could eat it with a spoon. But if it's frozen it loses something that changes the flavor and smell. Frozen and thawed raw suet tastes good to me but maybe it's as much better without freezing as raw butter is without freezing, or maybe something just in the butter changes from freezing differently.

    Same pattern of cooked or raw palatability with egg yolks (I've never eaten a frozen egg yolk though).

    There's something about the animal fats being raw that makes them much more appetizing to me to eat lots of.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2020
  11. Daulatwant

    Daulatwant Kipras

    20:80 That is the protein to fat ratio many long term carnivores and keto people recommend. For people with severe health issues it could be 5% protein 95% fat.

    Last few months I just started drinking straight up melted tallow, drinking half a cup to a cup at a time. Imagine eating soup, but it's only meat and instead of the water you've got melted beef tallow, that's the kind of meals you can expect if taking this approach.

    The problem that I run into when doing this, is that I do not enjoy eating tallow or beef fat in any shape or form. I can't find any good tasting beef or lamb fat where I live at least. I've tried eating it raw, cooked, rendered, fermented. And I never feel like coming back for more. I could be getting really bad quality fats, from animals, given dewormers, antibiotics, vaccines and so on. fed with grains sprayed with stuff like glyphocate.

    Not sure how accurate this is but I heard native tribes people around the world consume a ratio of 6 parts meat : 1 part fat(not rendered), that is by volume. But for some reason people recommend eating 2 parts meat : 1 part fat by volume.

    I'm ditching this high fat approach myself right now. It doesn't work for me in my current situation. I've been introducing some carbs again since I can now tolerate them and it seems helpful to have them for me.

    I would find the best quality foods that are readily available to you. And that you enjoy eating. Even if that happens to be some kind of plants, if it's good quality and you like it then go for it and see how you feel with it. Hands down the best alteration to any diet will be wild seafood, fish like herring, mackerel is really cheap and great.

    I did an rx for a few months where I was eating fish, tons of raw cottage cheese(with 2tbsp of honey each day), a little bit of lean meat and fermented cheese. After doing this I was able to tolerate plants and carbs again. And I never felt like I was restricting myself, cause I enjoyed eating this way.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
  12. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub


    5% protein 95% fat? Where did you see that?

    "I could be getting really bad quality fats, from animals, given dewormers, antibiotics, vaccines and so on."
    Dewormers get into the fat? Do you know if they wouldn't be in the fat anymore after how many weeks?

    "native tribes people around the world consume a ratio of 6 parts meat : 1 part fat(not rendered),"
    I think I remember seeing 3:1 mentioned a lot with people talking about mostly meat eating cultures, or maybe just one culture. It might've just been Stefansson talking about Eskimos. Not sure. Do you remember what tribes did the 6:1?

    "But for some reason people recommend eating 2 parts meat : 1 part fat by volume."
    Is that the eyeballing it way of doing 1:1 by grams? (For others reading this: 2:1 by calories is about the same as 1:1 by grams. So it'd be 2:1 by calories, 1:1 by grams, or 2:1 eyeballing raw fat to raw meat?)
  13. Daulatwant

    Daulatwant Kipras

    I think it is the original therapeutic ketogenic diet, that was used in the past for kids with epilepsy. Long term carnivores like Amber O'Hearn often talk about eating 10% protein 90% fat. Snake diet guy mentions it when talking about cancer, because it keeps the bloodsugar very low.

    Dewormers are straight up given to children. So if there is any trace amount found in the fat of an animal nobody will ever give any attention to it. I would say it's not weeks, but years on high quality pasture that's needed. Also dewormers could be used routinely, farmers can get mislead by veterinarians just the same as do people by doctors.

    American indians if I remember correctly.

    2 parts lean meat : 1 part fat by volume, will be about 20%proetin : 80% fat in calories.
    Dan2 likes this.
  14. Daulatwant

    Daulatwant Kipras

  15. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK New Member

    For the fats this might provide a clue. :)

    The fatty acids in fish and dairy products are odd chain fatty acids (heptadecanoic acid) which is also made in the intestinal tract from the fermentation of dietary fibre. (The gut fermentation route could be how the Hazda or other peoples who don't eat fish or dairy get their heptadecanoic acid).

    "Heptadecanoic acid can help protect against type 2 diabetes and heart disease". (Source the book Mitochondria in Health and Disease by Ray Griffiths).

    Palmitic acid (made endogenously and found in animal fats, coconut and palm oils) is an even long chain fatty acid, which, in excess can promote inflammation. Inflammation in turn increases the endogenous synthesis of palmitate. Excess endogenous palmitate is associated with lipid and blood sugar irregularities and inflammation. (Same book).

    Apart from potentially lowering overall inflammation, another thing is that a lot of raw cottage cheese would provide vitamin B5, (amongst other B vitamins) and B5 is needed for the coenzyme A part of Beta oxidation of fatty acids. :)
  16. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK New Member

    Another clue may be that dietary long chain saturated fatty acids can drive autoimmune reactions in the small intestine. The book also states that "Long chain fatty acids are advocated in ketogenic diets, but it might be wise to limit their intake. " So giving your gut a break from palmitic acid could have helped your gut recover. :)
  17. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK New Member

    Partly, and partly because different fats signal differently

    (From a mouse study I've seen),

    Although both lard and coconut oil had effects on haptoglobin gene expression in adipose tissues, it is "fat pad specific." Although the study is in mice, nocturnal blah blah, lard seems to have effects on visceral organs, whereas coconut oil influences the subcutaneous fat depot more. Apparently sumo wrestlers, despite their obesity from eating 10,000 calories a day, hold their fat in their subcutaneous fat stores. They train for 7 hours plus a day which keeps it from accumulating around their visceral organs. Animals that are getting ready for winter might want to pack fat anywhere they can for hibernation, ones that don't hibernate in the cold will burn it as fuel to generate heat, or be walking/travelling for miles a day. Without that level of exercise, or experiencing the cold in winter, stimulating my visceral "fat pad" is a bad idea. :D

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