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veggies and carbs in the UK

Discussion in 'The Epi-Paleo Diet' started by Matt Fowler, Aug 5, 2020.

  1. Hi guys,

    Im struggling with transitioning to the epi paleo rx. What veggies and carbs to people eat in the uk as part of their epi paleo diet? And how much daily?

    Many thanks
     
  2. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    John Schumacher and Matt Fowler like this.
  3. thanks for your reply! So the epi paleo rx is considered carnivore?

    Are people not eating veggies at all? Or is it a case of find whats local and eat it as long as its not a nightshade or a grain?
     
  4. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Assume that you are a farmer. See what you can grow in your backyard and when.
    Assume no refrigeration and no attempts on food preservation.
    ....
    Note that there are times of the year when there is just no food to eat.
    You are losing your body weight at those times.
    Knowing what is coming, you should have had planned for that, eating more in times of plenty.
    Yoyo, yoyo.
    ...
     
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  5. do you eat like that too? Much harder to do at high latitudes where things die off substantially in winter. need to get nearer the equator. Thank you Jan!
     
  6. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    For some people, the equator may be overrated.
    But if you are a nomad at heart, go for it.
    If you do not mind high crime, economic instability, snakes, scorpions, malaria, and other normal "natural" problems that are temporarily held off by technology developed in northern regions.
    --------------------------------------------------------
     
  7. Anne V

    Anne V Silver

    I was given antibiotics by the dentist because i had a new heart valve.
    since i have gone,and will continue for a month meat and fish only and, water. that is to reset my gut.
    if i recall JK talks about 50gr of carbs, max with the BAB.
    it all depends if u need to reset .
     
  8. Dan2

    Dan2 New Member

    Have you tried only meat (including fish and eggs) without any isolated supplements (in addition to salt I think shilajit and white stone oil aka brakshun are okay mineral supplements with a carnivore diet because of the naturally occurring proportions of minerals in them)?

    This shows that serum magnesium can be within normal range while eating much less than the RDA of magnesium for at least a few months if the metabolic context is unaffected by foods or supplements other than meat:

    The paleolithic ketogenic diet may ensure adequate serum magnesium levels
    https://www.researchgate.net/public...et_may_ensure_adequate_serum_magnesium_levels

    "We hypothesize that magnesium deficiency in chronic conditions is primarily due to Western type carbohydrate based metabolism. ...Here we assessed magnesium levels in a larger sample (n=50) to address whether the paleolithic ketogenic diet [of only meat and fat from the animal the meat is from; they recommend pork] is able to ensure normal blood magnesium levels. ...we retrospectively analysed laboratory data obtained from 50 patients/subjects who were following the diet and were also not taking magnesium or other supplements. ...We found magnesium levels to be in the normal range in all but one patient/subject. There was a significant inverse correlation between glucose and magnesium levels."

    I don't know of any similar study about potassium. And if a person thinks it's not a good idea to eat ONLY meat, fish, eggs and salt, I think the mineral supplements other than salt that would affect the metabolism best (because of proportions of minerals per dose of the whole substance) would be white stone oil and shilajit and the best additional foods might be seasonal berries and fruits because of plants putting the least defense chemicals (that might affect metabolic need and efficiency of minerals) in the fruits since they want the seeds to be spread.

    I don't know almost anything about the complexity of how metabolic pathways interact and are affected by proportions of nutrients in foods or isolated supplements, but it seems that sometimes plant chemicals and/or supplements, that might commonly be thought of as something that if it isn't useful at least won't be a problem in low doses, can influence metabolic pathways even at those low doses to reduce metabolic efficiency of nutrients interacting as proportions from quality food sources, and so a lack of those influences/disruptions can make for surprising changes in metabolic needs and synergistic sufficiency of the proportions in the quality foods -- surprising if the person doesn't understand the metabolic pathway interactions complexity enough to calculate all the little effects of seemingly at least benign supplements. I remember Jack has talked about this, unneeded supplements being net disruptive, but in much more detail.

    JanSz, I've seen your posts about muscle cramps and potassium. I don't mean that the potassium supplements aren't needed for the muscle cramps necessarily, but if you use other supplements maybe there are interactions making inefficiencies that could be fixed by either reasoning through the complexity of the metabolic pathway interactions or just using less like an elimination diet but for supplements test?

    And if you do that test, to try to prevent the muscle cramps in the short term, you could try the white stone oil/brakshun (I've read it called a potassium alum. I think one of the most predominant minerals in it is potassium; I don't know what form.) and maybe the proportions of other minerals in it would help to affect metabolism in a way that causes less inefficiency side effects in the pathways than an isolated mineral. The more efficient regulation of the pathway interactions from the naturally occurring mineral proportions might also make for less need of other supplements if they're useful currently as a somewhat fix for pathway interaction inefficiency side effects from other supplements (but causing their own side effects) and so on. And I think mineral supplements might make most sense to supplement with, to get under the layers of supplement somewhat fixes and side effects and somewhat fixes to those with more supplements and so on, because (I might be wrong about this) although excess of one mineral can make for more of another mineral needed, they don't cause imbalances in things other than minerals (maybe?). Which means that if the mineral supplement is naturally occurring so has proportions of minerals coming from a source of many (shilajit and white stone oil both supposedly have 40+), and it's been used for centuries so there are suggestions of how much to use how often to get good results (good results meaning improvements in almost all health problems for white stone oil and shilajit), then those proportions of those varieties of minerals must interact with our metabolic pathways to somehow increase the efficiency of most of them (both of the minerals and the pathways' effects on other nutrients) in most people, so supplementing with them is probably the least metabolic ineffiency side effect-causing and most supportive (because of the need of mineral balance for all metabolic pathways, I think?) way to generally reduce the need for other supplements. ..? I mean other than the availability of whatever things are in meat that made the people only eating pork in the above study have normal range magnesium, and the lack of plant defense chemicals interfering with the mineral efficiency -- I mean if you need to use some supplements to a meat, fish, eggs diet, shilajit and white stone oil might be good to still use during a supplement elimination test and maybe they'd be enough to prevent acute discomfort like the muscle cramps. And maybe the combination of using them and the lack of a little side effect from one supplement and a little side effect from another interacting would change symptoms and so make some supplements unneeded that seem needed now because of supplement interactions.

    ____

    edit: I said maybe fruits are the best plants to eat in food quantities because of plants wanting the seeds in the fruit to be spread, so there would be low amounts of defense chemicals in fruits.
    Attached is a PDF of a spreadsheet, made by the Harvard School of Public Health Nutrition Department, of oxalate contents in lots of foods. Source: https://regepi.bwh.harvard.edu/health/Oxalate/files
    Most are low but not all. And maybe some of the low oxalate fruits have high amounts of other defense chemicals.

    Screen shot 2020-08-08 at 1.19.34 PM.png

    Drying figs and pineapples increased oxalate from 9 to 24 mg and 4 to 30 mg.

    Screen shot 2020-08-08 at 1.26.40 PM.png

    Compared to 1/2 cup cooked spinach 755 mg, 1/2 cup rhubarb 541 mg, 1/2 cup navy beans 76 mg, 1/2 cup beets 76 mg, baked potato with skin 97 mg, 1 cup cooked buckwheat 133 mg, 22 almonds 122 mg, 4 tsp cocoa powder 67 mg.

    "The normal level of urine oxalate excretion is less than 45 milligrams per day (mg/day). A higher level of urine oxalate may mean you are at risk of developing kidney stones. Risk of stone formation seems to increase even at levels above 25 mg/day, which is considered a normal level." (https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?contenttypeid=167&contentid=oxalate_urine)
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
    Matt Fowler and JanSz like this.
  9. interesting point. I would rather the united states but the tourist visas arent as long as places like Mexico. Im feeling a bit better today RE going grain free. Hopefully I will keep improving as time goes on.
     
  10. thank you. I havent had carbs for two days now (unless broccoli counts as carbs). Im starting to feel better, I think I wasnt eating enough but now I seem to be levelling out. How much meat and fish do you eat on the reset? Im having a steak in the morning, about 200g salmon for lunch, and either a steak or mince for dinner. Im also starting to add in greens and sea weed.
     
    Anne V likes this.
  11. Hi again Jan, what do you think to utilising different sea weeds to deal with the potassium, magnesium etc? Nori, Kelp, and irish moss etc
     
  12. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    I use spectracell micronutrient analysis to tell me those details.

    spectracell.com

    ,,,,,
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
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  13. Dan2

    Dan2 New Member

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  14. Hi Dan, Ive read the above but my brain cant compute it right now - Im 7 days in to grain free leptin reset and am lacking lots of mental energy. Thank you
     
  15. Daulatwant

    Daulatwant Kipras

    Crank your fat intake.
    Get beef/lamb trimmings, tallow, butter(clarified if digestion isn't great)
    You could be needing as much as a cup of straight fat in a day to meet your caloric needs.
    You can mix fat with low carb veggies/greens and with some salt on top that should make it easier to get in the fat.

    No need to force yourself to eat a lot at first. Keep increasing your intake day by day.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
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  16. Excellent. this totally goes against my instincts as Ive always believed the paradigm that large amounts of fat are a problem to health. Currently im probably eating less than half a cup of fat all together. I cook my steak and meat in butter or dripping, and add butter to my meals. I also eat the fat on my steaks. But prob not enough. How much fat do you eat in a day? Is it possible to eat too much? thank you
     
  17. Anne V

    Anne V Silver

    yes broccoli counts as carbs . all vegs.
    i eat 2 meals a day at the moment 1 late morning , ie burger, eggs , bacon , ...
    and i the late afternoon ie ribeye steak
    but i need to reset from antibiotics, ...
    stop eating 4 hrs before bed,
    red light in the evening, sunrise everyday .
    no blue light after dark in general.
     
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  18. Dan2

    Dan2 New Member

    macros.png


    meals.png


    https://old.reddit.com/r/zerocarb/comments/i5w63n/the_21_ratio/

    About 2:1 fat : protein by calories or about 1:1 fat : protein by grams


    meals edit.png


    If that much cooked fat feels gross, try suet raw or seared with some salt. Toxicity usually accumulates in the animal's fat, so grass-fed suet is probably worth the money. In the US it's about $5/lb. If you can get fat trimmings, the intramuscular fat (in cuts of meat and trimmings from them) has more EPA, DPA, and DHA than subcutaneous fat (suet) does. And you could put those amounts of those foods above into something like Cronometer to see vitamin and mineral estimates. They should all be plenty if you include some liver or kidney or eggs and not just muscle meat. If Vitamin C shows as 0 that's not accurate (https://justmeat.co/wiki/vitamins/#vitamin-c).
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  19. Dan2

    Dan2 New Member

    "Ive always believed the paradigm that large amounts of fat are a problem to health."

    Eating lots of fat can be a problem when the person is insulin resistant. Eating lots of carbs regularly can make a person insulin resistant. So in context of diets that include lots of carbs, fat can seem like a problem. Lots of fat and lots of carbs isn't good long term. The nervous system needs fat, but lots of carbs and lots of fat means (with the possible exception of people who exercise enough and get lots of sun and time in nature) insulin resistance and problems from the combination of insulin resistance and dietary fat. So if fat is necessary for the nervous system, and protein is necessary, a person can eat lots of fat and protein and carbs and deal with the problems from insulin resistance or just lots of fat and protein if carbs aren't necessary. Carbs not being necessary hasn't been acknowledged much in the mainstream until keto became popular. Atkins diet in the early 2000s was popular but that was a low-carb recommendation and depending what low-carb means it might still be enough to have problems with insulin resistance, especially if the person was insulin resistant for a long time before starting a lower-carb Atkins diet, and that's how Atkins got accused of being possibly bad for cardiovascular health, how low-carb the person's version of the diet was and how that influenced insulin resistance and the interaction of lots of fat with that person's insulin sensitivity. Keto made very low-carb popular, but the variety of possibilities as to the amount of protein (and quality of it, meaning proportions of amino acids depending on the source of the protein) and kinds of fats (proportional compositions of fatty acids) means there's lots of ways to do a keto diet that might be better or worse for different people. Lots of people who tried variations of what could be called a keto diet have since tried a lot more or only animal foods, which makes for better protein quality (proportions of amino acids) and different proportions of fats (generally more saturated and monounsaturated and less polyunsaturated).

    More detail about insulin resistance being a problem in combination with lots of dietary fat and high cholesterol levels:

    The images in this post
    https://forum.jackkruse.com/index.php?threads/correcting-high-omega-6-3-ratio.24801/#post-287869
    and this one
    https://forum.jackkruse.com/index.php?threads/correcting-high-omega-6-3-ratio.24801/#post-287870

    The Big Fat Surprise by Nina Teicholz explains the story of how dietary fat became a culprit in goverment diet recommendations in the 20th century. I thought it was a good read also just because of how well-researched and well-written it is; it's a good example of investigative journalism (she communicated with people involved in the story to get first-hand details to fill in gaps in the research) even if reading a whole diet book seem boring. It's on Libgen:
    http://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=5C3E777F4CD725E11CC585D8472F1FFC
    It's a book she deserves to get paid for though, for the research quality, organization and the effect she's had on public policy considerations about nutrition guidelines that affect kids eating school lunches, food served in public institutions etc.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
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