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The PPP and ketosis, some different ideologies...

Discussion in 'Optimal Fitness' started by BigPapaChakra777, Jun 20, 2013.

  1. Hey all! I've recently been confused about some things and would love that confusion cleared up. All these these topics relate to ketosis and/or the PPP for performance and longevity. It seems as though people have been posting a lot about the PPP, especially asking Barry’s advice. I've just really been confused lately as to the minutia of the state of ketosis as well as ketogenesis (not the state, but the production of ketones), and the PPP. There are different takes on this and I've been doing some digging, leading me to an urge to attempt some "hacks" to steepen my state of ketosis, while slowly adapting and entering the PPP for martial arts. Before I jump right into this, I want to put it out there that I agree with Dr. Kruse and the members of these boards that ketosis is most definitely our preferred metabolic state of being - it also just plain makes me feel better (cognitively). A few things I'm confused about may have had light shed on them in some blogs, but I'm meticulously going over ever Leptin Prescription blog -I want to understand leptin and insulin as well as Dr. Kruse (ambitious? maybe so, lol). That being said, Paul Jaminet has some intriguing posts on "making a diet ketogenic", Petro Dobromylskyj at Hyperlipid has an interesting take on ketone production, and then Ben Greenfield's recent podcast in addition to Peter Attia has left me confused as S***!!.

    Ben Greenfield: http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2013/05/low-carb-triathlon-training/ and http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/...-on-the-dangers-of-extreme-carb-restriction/; Ben is pursuing a ketogenic experiment. From my knowledge, though, it would be more accurate to say he is supplementing his diet with ketogenic substrates while using carbs for performance. He states, "I’ll be implementing a 100% ketogenic diet (meaning I’m keeping my blood ketones at 1.0 millimolar or higher)," but then goes to show a sample for his diet which is, "50-100g carbs on an easy day, 100-150 carbs on an average day, 150-200g carbs on a hard and heavy day, along with lots of medium chain triglycerides to keep my body in ketosis. So this isn’t calorie-restricted ketosis. It’s high-fat, high-calorie ketosis (that’s Lesson #1 for you to ensure you don’t destroy your metabolism with stuff like this)." As far as I know (from the book The Ketogenic Diet, as well as Peter Attia) 0.5 millimolar of ketones = the state of ketosis. Also, I don't think 50-100g of carbs on an 'easy' day should promote a true state of ketosis, hence why he is supplementing MCTs. Let's look further. In an attempt to protect himself from thyroid damage, he is going to eat plenty of liver and 'sweetbreads', and goes to quote Chris Masterjohn, "Among the Indians in the moose country near the Arctic circle a larger percentage of the children were born in June than in any other month. This was accomplished, I was told, by both parents eating liberally of the thyroid glands of the male moose as they came down from the high mountain areas for the mating season (...)" He will also be using Oxaloacetate to more easily allow NAD conversion to NADH for the recycling of lactic acid to glucose. He will then be using X2Performance which is D-Ribose, caffeine and Pinitol. This isn't considering liberal amounts of MCT oil (not just coconut products, but Upgraded MCT oil).

    Peter Attia: http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/what-i-actually-eat and http://eatingacademy.com/personal/what-i-actually-eat-part-ii-ifik-2; As you can see, Peter Attia is in no way eating a low-calorie keto-diet - he consumes 4-4,500kcal a day (until he implemented IFing a year later, dropping calories significantly). He states, "I get this from approximately 400-425 grams of fat, 120-140 grams of protein, and 30-50 grams of carbs." and this, "anything over about 50 grams of carbs and 150 grams of protein makes it difficult to generate sufficient ketones." He takes far less supplements, really only supplementing things that are typically deficiencies, or that are easily lost during ketosis - potassium, sodium via bouillon, magnesium, and 2 tablespoons of MCT oil + omega-3's. In part two Peter speaks about how IFing affected ketosis, and oftentimes after a meal (after a fasting period) he would be knocked out of ketosis for some amount of hours. Now if you go to look at his meal template for his IFing days, he consumed varying amounts of carbs - one interesting thing to point out is it may not be the simple fact of eating after fasting that knocked him out of ketosis, but the fact that some days he ate more carbs (89g one day), therefore eating a much larger portion of carbs in one sitting, all while reducing total calories to lose weight - meaning less fat to cover the carbs and lower the glycemic response. Nonetheless, he still is returning to ketosis the following morning AND consuming a MUCH lower amount of carbs than Ben Greenfield, all while using less MCTs and less supplements. He is doing HIT as well as evidenced by his 75mins of bike intervals while fasting. His title for this was "Intermittent-Fasting, Intermittent-Ketosis," because he drifted in and out throughout the day.... this leads me to some questions as you will see.

    Now as we can see, there are clear differences between the ‘ketogenic protocols’ of both Peter and Ben. Now watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjpxQJ0ykMc; Peter is doing what is believe to be pretty much purely glycolytic work – definitely more intense than the average gym dweller doing random routines of 2-3 sets of 8-12 reps for the hell of it. If I remember correctly from his post linking this video he took in a small amount of SuperStarch (under 20g of carb worth) and 4g of BCAA. This is A LOT less carbs/supplements than Ben, and this would appear to be a rather ‘heavy day’. This gets me thinking, is Ben actually going to be in ketosis from beta-oxidation and endogenously creating ketones from the incomplete breakdown of FFA? Would he be in ‘intermittent ketosis’, due to his carb intake that is typically around training, or, would he be registering ketones because of exogenous ketone sources (MCT Oil/coconut products)? Peter even alluded to the fact that people can take in Ketone Esters and produce ketones in their body – correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t MCT oil more or less a food source of ketones similar to that of a ketone ester? Do MCTs actually aid in making your body a fat burner and aid in beta-oxidation, mitochondrial biogenesis, and your own endogenous production of ketones? To me, they seem to just serve as an alternative source to a true ketogenic state – hence why there are ‘MCT-ketogenic diets’ for therapeutic needs. They simply create ketones in the body and can actually be used by the body as a direct energy source as well. http://www.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/keto_news_august07
    Now let’s look at Paul Jaminet’s protocols for ketosis: http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/02/ketogenic-diets-i-ways-to-make-a-diet-ketogenic/; http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/0...ing-muscle-and-bone-loss-on-ketogenic-diets/; The first post has a nice little pictograph of how various amino acids enter the krebs cycle. Apparently protein is 20% ketogenic, 80% glucogenic. Certain aminos are both ketogenic and glucogenic, some are only glucogenic, and some are only ketogenic. Paul then describes how short chain fats are used for ketones after transformation into acetyl CoA. This is how Paul creates a ketogenic version of his diet while allowing 50g of carbs from starch in addition to practically unlimited vegetables. This makes sense, though, because some green veggies take just as much glucose through digestion as in what comes with consumption. There are a lot more of Paul’s posts I can post that offer interesting tidbits of information, but this should suffice.
    There is then this interesting piece I in fact found through Dr. Kruse (not this exactly, but the blogger) http://www.lucastafur.com/search/label/high protein. It goes to show that not only does excess protein not inhibit fat burning and ketosis, but extremely high amounts (almost 50% of calories) don’t. This flies in the face of what Peter and Ben are saying, as well as Phinney and Volek, and don’t forget Paul.
    Right now I’m in the process of re-reading The Ketogenic Diet by Lyle McDonald, but this time I’m going to do some very vigorous note taking. After reading it I’m going to look through ALL the hundreds of citations (that I can in fact access for free), especially the ones alluding to protein and fat refilling glycogen. I’m also planning to do the same to the book Carb Back Loading by John Kiefer. He shows tons of evidence on caffeine aiding in glycogen refilling. Both of these books are takes on Targeted Ketogenic and Cyclical Ketogenic diets – ketogenic diets with strategic carb consumption typically for muscle building.
    The reason I’m posting this is because it seems as though many are interested in this so called PPP. But as I laid out there are multiple ideas on ketosis, in fact, many more than I even posted – just look up The Optimal Diet, another ketogenic diet, or Ron Rosedale’s diet. So, is getting into the PPP only possible through ketosis, or just low-carb? Can cyclical ketogenic diets essentially do the same thing? I’m really just laying this out as a way to gather information on all of this because it’s highly intriguing. Some may say that I’m drastically over thinking this, and I’m sorry but I’d have to disagree. Dave Asprey (and the members at that forum) and Tim Ferriss have made me quite the ‘bio-hacker’, and therefore I want to know literally EVERYTHING when it comes to a specific topic for maximal optimization. Ketosis/PPP is no different. Hope people look into this post.
     
  2. Albert83BCN

    Albert83BCN New Member

    Great analysis BigPapaChakra777 ... I'm looking forward to anything you find out about this. My take is that in the end, what many 'gurus' are doing over there is having a border-line ketogenic diet but in the end, when they are going to face some event or strenuous workout they feel like playing it safe and add some stuff that at least will provide enough glycogen so that the brain can be fed with it and then take the ketones fuel the body. Just my interpretation, don't take it too seriously.

    I, like you, feel a lot better on low carb so that's why I still believe this could be the prefered state for the body. But there are some things that trouble me also. I feel 'so' well that I even experienced some cognitive changes. I think more clearly, have more confidence, no sudden mood changes... but I also feel like I'm more critic right now, I see things differently, I've developed some apaty, I don't tolerate some things I might have tolerated before, I also lost a lot of interest in woman (low libido)... it's like I'm in 'Zen Mode' right now, only pursuing truths and not caring about most other things... but this has an impact in my social life and how I relate to people... I even ditched my beliefs on being a vegetarian to pursue the optimal health for me... that was on a vegetarian diet that was pretty moderated in carbs on the end of that era... averaging 100 or so. Now I'm into 50-90 even on training days and the effect is even more intense... I somehow feel like I'm going from Anakin Skywalwer to Darth Vader, to put things in a funny way.

    If you have read Jaminet's stuff I'm sure you stumbled into the post that speaks about carbs and the thyroid and that VLC impacts free T3 so you stay in some form of hibernation mode (which makes some sonse) and that even high calorie HFLC couldn't sort it out, but that avg 150 gr of carbs or so fixed the issue... my experience is that this might be true because honestly some days I upped carbs as an experiment things seem to get better in this regard. But if I were to revert to higher carb I'd lose some other of the benefits I mentioned, I wouldn't be so ripped as I'm right now, and a lot more. I've been monitoring my temperature for several months and resting HR for more than a year and I can really say I find a correlation between low carb and lower metabolism. On VLC I can reach 40 bpm laying down on bed first thing on the morning and depending on carb loads the day before I could even get to 50-60 depending on how I undulge! So that's proof for me that carbs speeds up metabolism, so makes sanse LC for longevity but... for fertility, libido and joyfulness? is it the right way to go? Is keto for the younger ones? Can really sustain a stressful way of living?

    I suspect I'm missing some of the puzzle pieces, some say it can be possible to have fully functional thyroid and higher metabolism with low carb thanks to the critical stuff like proper iodine, selenium and other minerals... I guess that's why BG focuses so much on eating liver and sweetbreats... so you have the things you could be missing from low carb... but as you said he is 'not-so-that-much-low-carb'...

    Also, what I found looking for info about the PPP on the net is that this route seems to be more a one that aids in anabolic processes for rebuilding the body and that has not much to bring with energy utilization... that puzzles me a little bit as seems that not much we could get from it to fuel demanding activity. I guess, once again, they haven't seen something that Jack has, I don't have the needed understanding on biochemistry so most things I read I can barely grasp to understand some key points...
     
  3. Thanks for commenting, glad to hear your insights into this. After I posted this I felt as if it would go unnoticed, lol. But I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I think I may start taking my morning temps and heart rate as well as a means to quantify everything I'm doing before I can actually purchase some good gear/tech to do that. I have noticed some odd things being VLC. For the most part, cognitively I feel much better. I feel as though I have sharper concentration and overall better thinking (critical thinking as you alluded to), and anxiety and other symptoms I've suffered from are greatly diminished. I feel as though ketones are both an easier fuel for us to utilize, and also a restorative fuel. So it gives you a certain edge in the brain due to better efficiency, and it also helps neurogenesis and more so your brain is actually changing... BUT it may be stressful in the long-term and may or may not give us that huge jump in energy that carbs do (for performance). Dave Asprey, on a recent podcast, spoke about ketones vs. glucose as electricity vs. gas in a hybrid car, and how the ketones are like gas and take as for a long time, and the electricity is glucose because we have to refuel and what not but it gives us that brief spark of intense energy. The other caveat to how I feel is that I have been increasing my lifts although going up and down in muscle (probably glycogen supercompensation/depletion), but then there have been a few days where I felt out of it. Maybe poor sleep or something I ate, or maybe just a lack of glucose+protein as Paul would say.

    This is what leads me to confusion, because I don't necessarily know what the PPP is besides a chemically (maybe hormonally as well?) reduced state in which various systems, according to Dr. Kruse, get up regulated (such as intracellular glutathione). But how do we attain this state? Are there varying levels of PPP as there are in ketosis? By that I mean, according to some, 0.5 millimolar = the state of ketosis, but you can get much higher (BG is shooting for 1.0-1.5, and I've seen Paul Jaminet show people over 3.0 with ketogenic fasts) - so obviously there are differing degrees of ketosis, are there differing degrees of the PPP. And if so, could we get there with carbs, but slower and maybe not as deep of a state? For instance, Lyle McDonald has said that he's seen people be capable of transitioning into ketosis after a few weeks of eating glucose if they previously went a few months on one of his ketogenic diets - he doesn't know why but, although anecdotal, it seems their bodies still remember how to burn/use fat/ketones. Dave Asprey has also said how he can get back into ketosis in basically a day after eating a lot of carbs, and even eating a lot of carbs doesn't affect his performance that much. Is this a sign of the PPP? Being capable of going back and forth - being metabolically flexible? If so, Dave recommends a cyclical ketogenic diet, and Lyle recommends both cyclical and targeted ketogenic diets, therefore what would be the reason to not have refeeds or strategic carb intake? Maybe even eat according to Paul's ketogenic diet and eat a small amount of starch every day, primarily around workouts, but still be in a minimal (0.5 millimolar) state of ketosis. Maybe this can still eventually lead you to not ever needing any carbs with time, but longer (rather 24-36mo's, 36-48?).

    This is why I need to look into this MUCH deeper than I already have. I've been dedicating time to understanding everything leptin, but I think I may go to the library and print out Dr. Kruse' largest blogs and annotate them and go through all the citations individually - primarily CT4 and 6, BG 5-6, EMF FAQS, EMF4, and Hormones 101 as well as some others. Maybe I can get a good idea as to what I should aim for in my CT, diet, and training to access the PPP.

    Hope more people chime in!
     
  4. MeghanK

    MeghanK New Member

    Have you looked into RESISTANT STARCHES.... I think Paul eats a lot of white rice... which I THINK is a resistant starch A LA Free the Animal Richard Nickoley?
     
  5. Barry

    Barry New Member

    Finally someone gets it..... keep digging
     
  6. MeghanK

    MeghanK New Member

    @ BigPapa... I like your questioning of what exactly is the PPP and can it vary like the ketones of various people's "ketosis" diets.... what do you consider VLC? What is your carb intake and what foods?

    @Barry Do you eat any carbs at all? Which ones?
     
  7. My carb intake varies a lot but never gets above 30 unless I'm doing a carb load after resistance training. I'm really experimenting a lot with different amounts of carbs/protein while keeping my fat as high as possible. I'm re-reading The Ketogenic Diet by Lyle McDonald and taking serious notes, and some of what he says resonates with Paul - he says to consume at least 150g of protein during the transitional period to a ketogenic diet to maintain nitrogen balance, but after this can drop. Also, if you consume even minuscule amounts of carbs (rather than zero carb), you can drop protein even lower. I've noticed I look more muscular during certain parts of the week, and less during others (glycogen depleted and probably not consuming nearly enough sodium), so I'm really starting to adjust this. For instance, in the book Carb Back Loading, John Kiefer recommends you only eat very high glycemic index foods after resistance training in the evening (due to GLUT stimulation and fat cell insulin resistance), yet Lyle McDonald shows evidence that the constant spikes of insulin (every 2hrs recommended by some) and high glycemic carbs are not as necessary - it is the total amount of carbs consumed that will recompensate glycogen.

    As Barry said early in his renowned Fasted State Training Adaptations post, he didn't jump into this and go zero carb + IF + CR + Fasted State Training all at once - it was gradual. That's kind of what I'm doing. The Bulletproof Diet as per Dave Asprey is cyclical ketogenic, I don't believe carb refeeds are necessary for your thyroid and leptin levels but I'm not trying to lose a lot of muscle when I in fact need to gain weight, and I'm young enough that I can take a few years to eventually hit the 'PPP' (if one exists) and not worry. When I spoke about my carb intake on VLC days, I normally never go above 30-40, and it is normally much less, like 15g and a lot of it is from spinach/broccoli/kale and that gives even less glucose than what you would read on the package - it takes glucose to consume the veggies. Lot's of times I'll eat like 5 cups of spinach and maybe some mixed veggies and that gives me practically no carbs - this is where I need to make adjustments, I need to consume a little more protein to cover the almost zero carbs I have. The 'real' carbs I eat on VLC days only really come from 85% chocolate (not processed with alkali as that strips its antioxidants and polyphenols) and avocados - both are really high fat and can push my calories well over 3000 on a day I didn't even lift weights or do sprints.

    That being said, I'm not going to lie, I love reading through Paul's work - I don't think that you should get all your information from one source so I've been reading every single post of Dr. Kruse and looking through every citation he cites, same with Dave Asprey, and finally Paul Jaminet. I just don't agree with his ideas on ketosis. Lucas tafur showed it is unnecessary to consume glucose on a ketogenic diet as Paul recommends to avoid 'glucose deficiency'. It is really one or more things that stem from not eating the right foods - he showed evidence it is a protein deficiency, and likely also a DHA deficiency, which I would then go on to say would come paired with an Iodine, Selenium, and trace mineral deficiency. It all goes to show that ketosis is better eating an epi-paleo diet than any other due to those nutrients that actually compete with glucose for receptors. Take a look http://www.lucastafur.com/2011/03/ketomyths-ii_17.html
     
  8. MeghanK

    MeghanK New Member

    I applaud you for getting into the science of it all... I just can't wrap my head around it all.... I just need someone to lay it out to me in preschool terms ;) So you never consume sweet potatoes or white rice? Any dairy?
    Meghan
     
  9. @MeghanK: If you don't have the money to purchase the book, look up a pdf format of the book The Ketogenic Diet by Lyle McDonald. It will give you tons of information on keto-adaptation, how refeeds do/don't affect ketosis and fat utilization, protein sparing, how to do carb refeeds, the whole nine yards. A lot of female bodybuilders and powerlifters have even used these protocols, so I'd think it be okay for you to use although you are doing different activities. He has a book called The Ultimate Diet 2.0, and that is a cyclical diet as well and goes into a lot of biochemistry of fat cell apoptosis and how to use nutrients around activity - get or download these books and it will help a lot. I've only skimmed them in the past but now I'm going through them and annotating every thing and looking through the citations along the way and I'm really going to build up a protocol around the information.
     
  10. Well, let's put it this way. 6 out of 7 days - VLC about 30g carbs give or take some but it is often less due to green veggie consumption. What would normally fall under 'carbs' on these days are green veggies, 85% dark chocolate, and avocados. The days I 'refeed' I consume varying amounts of carbs, I'm going to increase them now that it is technically the summer solstice and I do more activity any how, on refeed days I consume sweet potatoes, overripe bananas, and things of that sort. I'm going to start playing around with different foods, though, as well as different amounts of carbs and then try to rapidly deplete glycogen during the week after a refeed. Eventually, as the months go on and I finish the LeptinRx protocol, continue with CT and have been doing a cyclical ketogenic diet for some odd months, I will drop carbs even lower and lower and test just how far I can go.
     
  11. So for anyone interested, I think I'll be posting a review of The Ketogenic Diet by Lyle McDonald after I finish annotating it, as well as discussing a lot of the minutia in the book as to refilling glycogen, glycogen supercompensation, how refeeding affects ketosis, etc. I'd also enjoy hearing from some of the members who have a lot of knowledge on performance nutrition chiming in on using various nutrients/supplements that affect glucose uptake in the muscles. I feel as though you could theoretically disrupt ketosis to a lesser degree and re-enter it quicker by taking advantage of these pathways (using AMPK, GLUTs, and more). It seems that EGCG, Curcumin, Turmeric, and a grapefruit flavinoid naringenin all increase glucose uptake in the muscle cells, while simultaneously keeping AMPK firing. This is significant because insulin normally disrupts/shuts off AMPK, but in studies these nutrients allowed AMPK to remain active.
    http://www.ergo-log.com/turmericglucose.html
    http://www.ergo-log.com/egcginsulin.html
     
  12. Dextery

    Dextery New Member

    http://www.ergo-log.com/egcginsulin.html

    "...claims for green tea products as pre-training energizers, and might also be evidence of after training effects. Green tea stimulates fat burning during cardio sessions. If green tea also increases the uptake of glucose, it makes green tea even more interesting."

    We know that green and black tea contain some fluoride naturally.
    http://poisonfluoride.com/pfpc/html/green_tea___.html

    Dr K has said just one atom of fluoride is enough to contaminate our bodies.

    I think I will stick with Dr K on this one...choosing to drink nothing but non fluoridated water and pass on the tea.
     
    rlee314 likes this.
  13. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

  14. ^Thanks for that link, Dr. Kruse. I'm kind of confused though, Dextery - Dr. Kruse at least used to recommend drinking liters of green tea a day. I understand that as understand and science change, so should we, and that very may well have happened. But I can't see the fluoride in tea doing anything considerably bad if we are avoiding tap water and have even went as far as not using fluoridated toothpaste and filtering our bathing water. So many cultures/long living individuals consumed green, black, or oolong tea daily. I remember an interview with this centenarian that had recently passed away, and she attributed her health to drinking a whole pot of green tea and smoking weed every day for over 50yrs. Looking back, I saw that she also lived in a village that had a more wetlands/forested area with lots of sunlight, so she probably had a good environment to live long, but that goes even further in showing that if we can control for some things more than none at all, good things will happen.

    Also, many athletes, ESPECIALLY body builders, aren't looking for longevity, more so a legacy. I know many people personally, let alone people I've seen comment on body building forums who see no reason in living past an age where they can't lift weights, run, or have tons of sex. I know this is silly. I also argue that if they take care of themselves they can do this into their old age anyhow. What I'm getting at is some people would gladly drink a crap load of heavily fluoridated tea post workout if they even thought (not even undoubtedly know) it would make them more insulin sensitive. I actually know a whole workout/eating protocol that this would help drastically (Carb Back Loading). Hmm... maybe I should start a business venture now, lol.
     
  15. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    my tea was home made with F free water.........love tea.
     
  16. Dextery

    Dextery New Member

    I do remember you posting somewhere purchasing tea by the gallons at Whole Foods. Are you saying that the tea is not the problem...it is the fluoridated water only and there is no fluoride in the actual tea leaves themselves?
     
  17. Albert83BCN

    Albert83BCN New Member

    Excuse me to deviate a little bit the conversation, but this sentence got my attention. This substances you mentioned are also very strongly correlated with T-Helper cells associated with immune function and I wonder if there could be any connection to all this. I know of this because I made a connection with my past and when I did feel the worst in my life. The worst time was when arround 25 and I eat a lot of grains plus lots of tea. I felt every morning like crap, also got the mononucleosis. The some time after I started to feel a little bit better (and right now I realise it was when I reduced tea intake to more normal levels or just occasionally) and more recently I started to feel a little bit worse again and realized It might have a connection with the fact I started adding coffee in to the mix (never been a coffee person until 2 years ago).

    This, alongiside the grains and nightshades thing is how I did some research and found out about the Th1/Th2/Th17 balance and how it could be altered via food and/or supplementation and could play a great role in auto-immune diseases...

    Now I find interesting that you mentioned all substances that can switch this balance (some to Th1 and some other to Th2). As for me, I suspect that I could have a strong tendency to dominate on the Th2 and coffee/tea can make it worse. Red wine/grapes/resveratrol seems to push up the Th2 balance too. Curious thing as I never did very well on wine, I get drunk with it very easily and feel weird, not that much with other more strong alcoholic beverages (althought nowadays I barely have any alcohol at all)...

    You got me some ideas with this thing that these substances can improve the AMPK firing and glucose uptake at the muscle level. I did a quick search trying to correlate AMPK and Th1, Th2... found a paper that I can barely understand 1% of what it is talking about but my intuition tells me it says something like many of this T-Cells and cytokines might need different metabolism routes to thrieve, some of them the glycolitic and some other the fat oxidation... so I wonder how this relate to the AMPK thing, and if this ergogenics for exercise are really because of this reported benefits, the stimulation of caffeine to the CNS or might be even because of their auto-immune properties? What about if the ergo aid of coffee/grean tea might come because of an stressed immune system?

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3198034/
    https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=...=_y0K7f16q7Ttykp6PLPupw&bvm=bv.48293060,d.ZGU

    Well, don't even really sure about what I just wrote. In just have a kind of epiphany, most probably a wrong one that is missing lots of things.

    But my take is that be aware with green tea besides the fluoride thing, it might be other reasons and very depending on the immune system of each one of us. This, at least, has been reported from others, see:
    http://www.precisionnutrition.com/rr-green-tea-hazards
     
  18. Well thanks for 'deviating' from the conversation, haha, you brought up some topics I never even looked into. It kind of explains my experience with alcohol in the past as well - anytime I drank I would drink a lot over a long period of time (starting midday and going until 2-3am with intermittent breaks which allowed me to consume more) and I noticed I could handle a small amount more of hard liquor than wine. Wine didn't get me 'hammered' but produced this odd but amusingly happy feeling that I enjoyed. Glad I gave up drinking, though, maybe in the future after I get my situation worked out. I wasn't aware of Th1 and what not, I'm going to have to look all of that up. It got me thinking a lot about coffee and tea though. I consume a lot but just ran out of my batch of Decaff Upgraded Coffee, still have some organic green tea (although it's not great quality and from china), and I'm now thinking about giving both up unless I have Upgraded Coffee beans which I could only afford sparingly. This would actually allow me to conduct more experiments on myself through quantified-mind.com and find out what negatively or positively impacts my performance and well being. I may actually do this now after I finish the tea for like 30 days then get some Upgraded Coffee and use quantified-mind to see how well it impacts my cognitive abilities and keep a journal to see if I experience any adverse reactions.

    I was posting those supplements/nutrients though because it really spiked curiosity in me - I'm looking for anything that can give me an edge. I've been really digging into ways to build muscle and strength and I've looked into Carb Back Loading, and those nutrients seem to be perfect for that specific protocol. In fact, if I properly times everything, I could fit in CBL with the LeptinRx and use 'protein pulsing' for enhanced protein synthesis (consuming a lot of protein at once seems to accomplish this) and when I get the money use turmeric/curcumin post workout with my meal. Actually gave me some business like ideas if I bought some tech to quantify (track ketones/glucose/fat mass).
     
  19. Albert83BCN

    Albert83BCN New Member

    If it can give you any clue or be useful in any way... I've been weight training in a bodybuilding fashion for 8 years now, I'm kind of small-packed guy so I'm not huge by any means so maybe my advice might not be so cool like one you could get by a huge guy that got really big... but for my size I've done pretty well mantaining decent muscle mass and great body composition, V shape, decent biceps, visible abs, you know... and I did both in high carb as in low carb. My lifts haven't improven really that much on both and other kinds of diets past the 2 year initial stage where I got almost all the benefits from lifting. From then on, it has been mostly maintainance. Well, I must adminte endurance running might have played as a downside for muscle size as it does not play very well with it (but if you shift interests, resistance training seems to aid endurance pretty well).

    The takeaway for is that the macro ratios are not of a lot of concern right now because I proved myself that more or less I can mantain decent muscle with both approeaches as long as I consistently train and have decent amounts of protein (I even did with low fat for many time when into a vegetarian diet...). I always had my whey shakes postworkout plus some aids like creatine pre and glutamin post... and did fine just with this. But at least, at low carb I'm more ripped, when in high carb I'd always look kind of puffy.

    That's why I'm starting to think that carb post workout refeeds don't have much to do really with building muscle, you just said that leucine by itself could hamper muscle building and with enough protein and hormonal balance this should be feasible. My concers are more with athletic performance because I've to push it into the glycolithic pathway for too much time and that's what I found more catabolic for me until now and hormone suppressing.

    As for curcumin, licorice and some more adaptogens, I introduced them several months ago and I really think it is playing a good role into this (Th1 balancer so another point in the possibe self-diagnosticated Th2 dominance for me).
     
  20. Albert83BCN

    Albert83BCN New Member

    I did a quick search and realized 'divert' should be the prefered word? Sorry I'm not a native english speaker, I guess you already noticed hehehe. It's a pitty because most times I cannot express exactly what I really think, I have to take some trade-offs in communication skills so I don't end spending 1h to complete a post... :D
     

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