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Discussion in 'Redox Rx' started by Jack Kruse, Mar 1, 2019.

  1. Sajid Mahmood

    Sajid Mahmood Silver

    I think 2 firestorms is best, using 3 or more firestorms together may cause circuit problems. Also with more power, it’s better to use in shorter durations, because longer durations leads to biphasic dose response and tissue damage. You have to figure out what the right duration, and distance should be. The distance has to be good enough that it penetrates through.
    gene@kalmens.org likes this.
  2. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    1060watts/115 volts=9.2 amps

    On 15 amps circuits, you can have only one of these lamps
    On 20 amps circuits, you can have (barely) two

    15A circuits (usually) are on 14 ga wires (if you are lucky, they may be 12 ga) (then you may replace them with 20A outlets (and 20 A breaker). Worth checking.
    20A circuits are on 12 ga wires.

    Sometimes it is easy to add a new electric panel.
    It was not easy, but I had to do it for my DW's saltwater aquarium. Did wires good for 100A (planning) but put it on 50A breaker.
    Then it was easy to get numerous 15 or 20A clustered outlets in just the right places.

    4x2 15A below.

    2x2 20A below.
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2022
  3. If you are going to the trouble, you could also put in a sub panel with isolated individual breakers and circuits for added safety.
    gene@kalmens.org and ND Hauf like this.
  4. You do not want to sit too close to these panels, they emit dirty current. If I have about 10 cm distance from Firestrom for 10 minutes, this is sufficient. Normally I never use these panels for more than 20 minutes at a time. After 20 minutes, some biological effect occurs that we do not want, do not remember which one. Normally I have a distance of one to three feet between me and the light source often I use UVB with these panels.
  5. @Sajid Mahmood - Please note the human studies are researching the "sweet spot" for "biphasic dose response"; these are not "currently" a function of time, but a function of J/cm2.

    Specifically, what has been found "so far" is J/cm2 in range between 50 and 100 J/cm2 is the biphasic dose/response curve producing deleterious effects.
    At doses with lower values (30 and 50 J/cm2 ), it was possible to observe positive effects such as stimulation and cell proliferation.

    However, most studies are conducted using "professional low level laser" machines. I believe these could be generalized to other products like the EMR Firestorm. To do so, we must understand the mechanism of action, depth of penetration, focus of the light (how narrow the beam). Then we must test using biomarkers which indicate efficacy of "how well" each perform.

    Biphasic Dose/Response of Photobiomodulation Therapy on Culture of Human Fibroblasts
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2022
  6. Thank you everybody for your responses! Given the promotion and the biphasic response concern, should I be good with a firestorm and a free firewave combo?
    I understand the wiring concerns, so I will work with an electrician to ensure that the power consumption won't be an issue.
    Separately, Kris, the EMR-TEK CEO, insists that protective goggles should always be used during therapy. Any thoughts about it, given the goal is to treat retina?
    Again, great and useful information! I am really grateful.
    Sajid Mahmood likes this.
  7. and use such light treatment in the middle of the day if you can, at least if you include UV light. Light tampers with your circadian rhythm, ++
  8. Sajid Mahmood

    Sajid Mahmood Silver

    Thanks for the info

    Are there any devices available to measure the J/cm2?

    Is there any way to calculate the J/cm2?

    Solar power meter SM206 that measures the irradiance in W/m2, not sure if it shows J/cm2, maybe you can calculate the J/cm2 when knowing the Irradiance power and duration.

    What’s the most optimal irradiance? The irradiance has to be strong enough to penetrate through to the deeper tissues. If i can remember correctly, im quite sure i read somewhere it’s something along the lines as 50 W/m2 to 100 W/m2. Not sure though, someone correct me if i got it wrong.

    Anyone have more information on all this?
  9. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    ND Hauf likes this.
  10. How to calculate:
    500 W/m^2 = 0.05 J/cm^2
    70-75 mWatts/cm^2 = 70-75 J/cm^2​

    @JanSz reported on post -> https://forum.jackkruse.com/index.php?threads/red-light-panels.26557/page-3#post-308297

    The EMR Firestorm produced -> at 15-16" 70-75 mWatts/cm^2 , (every 15 seconds you get a one Joule of energy)
    10 - 60 Joule for deep tissue treatment---> 2.5 minutes to 15 minutes, 15"-16" away
    However, please note when comparing types of photobiomodulation machines -> low level lasers are very narrow beamed devices. Most LED devices "we" can purchase have a beam spectrum as wide as 180 degrees. Please consider reading:

    The Nuts and Bolts of Low-level Laser (Light) Therapy
    • Spatial coherence typically is expressed through the output being a narrow beam which is diffraction-limited, often a so-called “pencil beam.”​
    • These narrow beams can cut a hole in your skin.​
    This is why I stated above: Most studies are conducted using "professional low level laser" machines. I believe these could be generalized to other products like the EMR Firestorm. To do so, we must understand the mechanism of action, depth of penetration, focus of the light (how narrow the beam). Then we must test using biomarkers which indicate efficacy of "how well" each perform.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2022
    Sajid Mahmood likes this.

  11. The the problem of J/cm2 used as dose....
    Lets say that a medium/ large potted plant needs a gallon of water a week. A Gallon applied by a pressure washer in 10 seconds would dig the plant out of the pot. That would be surgical use of a water just like a surgical laser. if it was poured in over a 2 mins then it would drown the plant in the short term but within a week the water would be dispersed / soaked up / evaporated and at the end of a week the plant might have recovered. Just don't do that every week to the poor plant, maybe better to drip it in slowly over a one week period then no harm done. You are putting it in as fast as the plant is using it. The light bed MK1 was low density light, about 17mW/cm2 and I'm not saying you can stay in it all day, even 17mW/cm2 for over an hour (61J/cm2) might be too much, we don't know the limit yet for humans, but is not the same as 61J/cm2 applied in 30 seconds. that would be analgesic (neural blockade). Having said that, nice interesting things seem to happen with high dose low intensity light . some people feel euphoric, many fall asleep (including me, every time).

    There are studies that show 30Joules of energy delivered with 5mw/cm2 over a longer time was more effective than when delivered by 50mw/cm2 in a shorter time, for example.

    We get these questions all the time and my general response is that westerners DO NOT UNDERSTAND SUBLETY, AND ALWAYS THINK MORE IS BETTER (hint, it is not)

    joules/dose CatchE912(01-10-14-23-51).jpg /time chart from mk1.6 mitogen pod
    John Schumacher likes this.
  12. cortisol is a helluva drug
    John Schumacher likes this.
  13. nonsense. studies show eyes can be helped with less than 17mw/cm2
    John Schumacher likes this.
  14. its possible we just need to quote by location, as the international shipping has become ridiculous
  15. first of all, have you even tested this with a calibrated laser power meter or just a solar power meter?
    John Schumacher likes this.
  16. What type of Watts is important, and how many Watts do we need?

    The intensity, sometimes called the Power Density, Irradiance, and units of mW/cm^2 tends to be very important. This is what is most often reported in the clinical science when talking about dose. Typically the effective range is between 5mW/cm^2 to 50mW/cm^2 in most panels.

    Of course, more intensity does not always mean better results, and sometimes using lower power lights for longer time is more practical. Lower intensities might be used in products that are used with skin contact, where higher intensities are used for panels that are further away to counteract the reflection losses. Eventually, much intensity will start to cause heating or eye concerns.
    John Schumacher likes this.
  17. Thank you @Josh (Paleo Osteo) - I do see you're selling https://mitogenhealth.com/product/mitogen-red-light-panel/
    • 43mw/cm2
    • Consumption: 365 W
    • Dimensions: L 91 x W 30 D 10 cm
    • LEDs: 252
    For those interested is potential projected numbers for the EMR Tek:

    EMR Tek Firewave ->
    EMR Tek Firetorm ->
    • 1060 watts Spectrum (Wavelengths): (630nm-20%(orange-red)+660nm20%+670nm-20%(red)+830/850nm-40%(near-infrared)
    • The intensity of the light could be comparable to the Firewave at 41.5mW/cm^2 at 6 inches, because the LEDs used in both are the similar; the difference is the number of LEDs 20 smaller 3 watt diodes and 5 COBs, compared with the Firewave’s -> 12 surrounding 3 watt diodes with one center COB
    • Coverage of 5 COBs with the Beam Angle of 60 degrees -> each COB has a diameter throw of 6 inches, each COB are 6 inches apart, estimated total throw potential is 13 inches diameter coverage (at 6 inches away)
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2022
  18. Sajid Mahmood

    Sajid Mahmood Silver

    The target is to get just the right amount of irradiance to get through to the deeper tissues with the least amount of bipashic dose response.

    What irradiance is just enough to penetrate through to the deeper tissues, also with the least amount of bipasic dose response.

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