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Some Perspectives on Fish Oils and DHA

Discussion in 'Beginners Area' started by Dennis Clark, Apr 30, 2015.

  1. Dennis Clark

    Dennis Clark Dr. Dennis Clark

    A big challenge for me has been switching my 'solution' biochemistry background into 'solid-state' biochemistry (quantum biophysics) explanations. What fun it is when I finally get something, or at least have the illusion that I get it. Figuring out DHA and fish oils has been one such puzzle. I think I got a few things straight enough to help my own blog readers make better choices.

    http://herbscientist.com/fish-oils-industry-bs-just-plain-fishy/

    Once I get my first mackerel head smoothie down (and keep it down!), I will know I am getting closer to optimal.
    Cpt.Tired and Josh like this.
  2. yewwei.tan

    yewwei.tan Live 4 da Lulz

    Great blog ;). Great link to the BBB transport protein Mfsd2a too!

    You mention LysoPC as the transport carrier for DHA. LysoPC itself has been somewhat demonised as a highly reactive agent, which if you look at the image from your blog (reproduced below), is a highly asymmetric molecule in terms of charge distribution, with a very polar choline head, and with DHA itself having a lot of delocalised electrons.


    [​IMG]
    (note: the image isn't 100% accurate, since DHA would curl up)

    [​IMG]


    In any case, this makes the entire LysoPC-DHA structure very prone to interaction with other charged particles, and will likely be drawn to regions of high magnetic flux (given that both DHA and LysoPC are paramagnetic)

    Now, I have speculated before that in order for DHA to be transported safely, you need ionic kosmotropes like iodine and selenium to "protect it". I have no clue about the exact mechanisms, and cannot find studies about it. I personally feel that increased hydrogen bonding networks of water surrounding DHA (due to the kosmotropes)

    Details on ionic kosmotropes: http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/kosmotropes_chaotropes.html

    But basically, they strengthen the hydrogen-bonding network of water, which allows for charge-separation and efficient proton conduction. http://www.i-sis.org.uk/SuperconductingQuantumCoherentWaterinNanospace.php

    Also, formation of EZ (Exclusion Zone) water around the LysoPC-DHA structure would tend to exclude other compounds (hence the name Exclusion Zone), and prevent non-resonant interaction with LysoPC-DHA . Proteins which are resonant with LysoPC on the other hand, would be able to "send the appropriate signal" through water, and allow for interaction. This could plausibly how Mfsd2a "decides" what to let through the BBB.

    Formation of EZ water requires hydrophilic surfaces and water with strong hydrogen bonding networks. This is what seafood provides that fish oil supplements do not.

    Of course, fish oil still tends to show some benefit. My opinion is that if your body is naturally capable of forming these EZ water shells, then fish oil can be assimilated much be

    ----

    Random article about DHA sources ;): http://qhwiki.com/opinion:dha-highest

    .....
  3. Dennis Clark

    Dennis Clark Dr. Dennis Clark

    Wow, you are just as thorough as I've seen you on other threads. Now I know you are quick, too. Thanks for your input. I am still overwhelmed by Pollack's book on EZ water (haven't quite finished it yet), which adds to the overwhelm of Ling's work on 'membranes'. Your comments have pointed me more clearly in the right direction for thinking about DHA, EZ, and friends.

    Now to dinner before my wife gets impatient with me. I will come back at a later time and follow the links you've provided.

    By the way, I am almost convinced that there is more than one Jack Kruse. He puts out too much stuff for just one human being, especially one with such a demanding profession.

    In fact, you are pretty productive, too. Hmm.

    Oh, as for the stick models of DHA, etc. That is what we used to learn in chemistry class to represent what are really electron clouds. Pretty hilarious on hindsight, especially for pi bonding.
    Brent Patrick likes this.
  4. yewwei.tan

    yewwei.tan Live 4 da Lulz

    Can't edit the previous comment ....

    Last paragraph should have been:

    Of course, fish oil still tends to show some benefit. My opinion is that if your body is naturally capable of forming these EZ water shells, then fish oil supplements can be assimilated more easily. This doesn't change the fact that fish oil supplements will definitely see degraded DHA just from the fact that they are separated from the protective proteins, ions, and water, that you get when you eat real seafood.
    ----

    Pollack's book is great!

    .....
  5. JanSz

    JanSz Silver

    Nice review, thank you.
    Number of questions addressed.
    DHA --- important, specially for the brain
    DHA --- drastically various content in variety of tissues
    DHA --- have to be eaten then must make thru brain barrier
    DHA --- sn-2 position
    --------

    I could use more answers or opinions:

    DHA --- when eaten as fish oil, comes with high excess of EPA (major reason to not eat fish/krill oils), other reasons come after this one (paraphrasing dr Patricia Kane)
    Excess of EPA suppresses Omega6, specially AA (bad move having excess EPA, but very common with advent of fish oils)
    Starting with high excess of EPA (due to fish oil consumption) then dropping fish oils and
    converting to high consumption of seafood, have small/slow impact on EPA reduction on blood tests (over number of years)
    how to get rid of excess EPA?
    Anyhow, seafood analysis show EPA excess similar to fish/krill oils, so with lots of seafood comes lots of (unwanted) EPA (but it is good quality, non-rancid etc), so when I am eating lots of seafood I may newer get rid of excess EPA.

    I hate to do brain biopsy to figure my DHA status. But major reason is that not to many do this so laboratory ranges of good levels may not be of good quality.
    Practically available are Fatty Acid analysis in blood.

    Two parallel discussion are usually present.
    DHA level and Omega6/Omega3 ratio.

    I could use definition of Omega6/Omega3 (as understood by scientists when the say Omega6/Omega3 ratio).
    Lacking proper definition I take it as (Total Omega6)/(Total Omega3)

    I have seen numerous values for good O6/O3 ratio, 2, 4, 6.

    I have a problem with either one.
    If my definition is correct then one can have inadequate DHA and other O3's high (hello EPA) and ratio becomes very good but misleading.

    I have tried to reconstitute good O6/O3 ratio.
    I took laboratory ranges of two very good laboratories, assumed that each fat is in the middle of its range and then took the ratio.
    Surprise,
    The difference is two fold.
    There must be a better way.
    Help.


    Mayo O6/O3=11.9
    Krieger O6/O3=5.8


    [​IMG]
    Last edited: May 1, 2015
    yewwei.tan and Arborescence like this.
  6. Josh

    Josh Gold

    Hmmm....Mfsd2a...when I hear "transport-dependent", I think "what does one need to have enough transporter at the right place at the right time...."

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0050629

    Keywords for me:

    1. "Hepatic" requires the liver to function well, big if in modern life as the entire "methylation?acetylation" troubleshooting with enzyme kinamatics and poton tunneling issues....redox rules again...
    2. "Brown Fat" if above is down in some way....less Mfsda2a and less BAT for regulation and less DHA in brain...
    3. "increased whole body energy expenditure"....this has something significant to do with DHA and conversion of DC current to light and vice versa as we would expect...this also implies increased Ubiquitination rates...
    4. "MFSD2A is a nutritionally regulated gene" this is unclear and as I have learned here is often a throwaway meaning "I do not want to get into the biophysical implications at the quantum level and have to deal with stochastic QED issues"
    This suggests Leptin resistance FUBAR's Mfsd2a production in the liver...

    This sounds as though without circadian cycling and being able to tell time, a body has trouble with optimizing its Mfsd2a and DHA transport...

    There are a lot of black boxes in this still unkown...
    Last edited: May 1, 2015
  7. Josh

    Josh Gold

    More...Mfsd2a...

    =communication=mass equivalence and signalling

    http://hms.harvard.edu/news/breaking-through-barrier-5-14-14
  8. Josh

    Josh Gold

    So I am thinking "what are the epigenetic issues with the expression of the Mfsd2a genes?" Is there anything unusual about these? Probably all of the usual suspects so we double up on the lipase formation and function issues related to mass equivalence and the issues affecting the formation of the transporter protein once we have the DHA digested into the form that can be transported. I would bet there are Mfsd2a antibodies with dysfunctional energy starved unregulated immune function as well....

    On we go....

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1388198114002662
  9. Josh

    Josh Gold

  10. Josh

    Josh Gold

    [​IMG]

    Hmm.....HERV...
    Last edited: May 1, 2015
  11. Josh

    Josh Gold

    Getting thicker...


    nnEMF alert....loss of mass equivalence...redox rules here too..

    http://www.biolreprod.org/content/83/3/387.long
  12. Josh

    Josh Gold

    So does CT upregulate Mfsd2a production and DHA transport in humans? Am I being too simple?

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2587516/
    Brent Patrick likes this.
  13. Josh

    Josh Gold

    At the end of the session, I can not find a chemical/molecular formula for the actual protein the reputedly transports DHA. This limits some inquiry with regards to structure and its susceptibility to vibrations/light/current...tautomers, chirality and such...

    I may just be too poorly educated to sarch for it properly...LOL
  14. yewwei.tan

    yewwei.tan Live 4 da Lulz

    I would think so. Though just having MFSD2A isn't enough, since the pericytes of the BBB also need to act accordingly to allow entry of DHA into the brain.

    Also, beta blockers are bad.

    .....
  15. Josh

    Josh Gold

    CircCycleMfsd2a.jpg

    wonder if this has anything to do with DHA utilization...there are 74 families of Mfsd2a proteins
    Josh (Paleo Osteo) likes this.
  16. Josh

    Josh Gold

    I wonder how much of the fish vs. fish oil issue may relate to transporter function?
  17. Dennis Clark

    Dennis Clark Dr. Dennis Clark

    Wow, Wei, JanSz, and Josh...The biochemistry can sure be overwhelming. I could spend all day digging into stuff (if I could search better, too, Josh). I think, at the end of the day, I am always keeping uppermost in mind what action steps I can and should be taking on the firehose of knowledge whooshing into my brain. Eliminating day-night mismatches in my own lifestyle is still the key action to take. It has already improved my previously abysmal sleeping pattern. I am sure that many other actions from Krusology have contributed to this and other improvements, too.

    I still have what seems like a thousand Kruse posts to get through and figure what to do about. My biggest challenge is straddling the fence between my old-timey 'solution' biochemistry background and Dr. K's 'solid state' biochemistry approach to understanding what optimal health really is.
    Brent Patrick, Josh and Cpt.Tired like this.
  18. JanSz

    JanSz Silver

    I think I have to spell one question more directly. Excess of EPA.

    I am afraid that either fish/krill oils or seafood may give me what I do not want.
    Excess EPA.
    I know for sure that excess of EPA wreaks havoc in Omega6.

    I think that this questions practically can be answered mostly by testing large enough group of people.
    Interested health practitioners are well equipped to work on answer.

    //
    Last edited: May 3, 2015
  19. JanSz

    JanSz Silver

    AXOM3
    Is all about DHA in sn-2 position.
    http://axom3.com

    -----------------------------------------
    To start with, it is a fish oil based on oil from tuna because it have the most DHA in sn-2 position to start with.
    Process was used to convert as much as possible from other to sn-2 position.
    However I do not see anything about EPA, so I assume that EPA content is unchanged from original (too much??).
    -----------------------------------------

    .......
    shipping can be done in ISRAEL only

    ........
    Last edited: May 8, 2015
  20. JanSz

    JanSz Silver

    http://axom3.com/en/2011/08/02/bioavailability-–-כושר-ספיגה/

    Bioavailability – absorption capacity
    Attempts to define the controversial concept of bioavailability were made by several researchers. Recently it was agreed that the term shall describe“the fraction of active matterthat is transported acrossthe intestinal membrane into the bloodstream.
    Someresearchers argue that the term bioeffectivity is more accurate and it includes the abilityof the active substance to travel to its target.
    Maximum bioavailability of 100% according to the first definitionoccurs when asubstance is injected directly into the bloodstream.Most researchers use this concept for comparison. If a drug ( pharmaceutical)or a food supplement ( nutraceuticals) , for example, containing 500 mg of biactiveis orallyintake andafter an giventime, 400 mg of the same bioactive were found in the bloodstream itreflect a 80%bioavailability.
    Omega fatty acids are part of a triglyceride (fat or oil) chemical structure..Structurally, a triglyceride has a glycerol backbone grafted withthree fatty acid lipophilic tails of fatty acids. Positional analysis indicate that the fatty acids can be grfrated (occupy) three positions known as:
    SN1 – first position
    SN2 – second position
    SN3 – third position
    The location of the “active” DHA on the glycerol backbone is very important for the improvement of absorption.
    The fat( that is solubilized in the guts in the presence of bile salts)reachesthe intestinal ) does not cross the membrane in this form. The fat is partially hydrolyzed by the interfacial membrane enzymes to monoglycerides and free fatty acids.
    The guts membrane can readily (fast) andquantitatively (fully) transport the monoglyceridewith the fatty acids attached in the SN2 position ) and in a slower if the acid is positioned in the SN2 or SN3
    Supplements currently offered in the market, contain a low amountof DHA (maximum 30%) and it is distributedstatistically among the three SNpositions. Thus there is only a small percentage of DHA in the SN2 position.
    AXOM3 contains over 70% of concentrated DHA and there are at least 80% of DHA in the SN2 position. AXOM3is termed re-esterified DHA or DHA-TG.
    Triglyceride since it was designed and prepared enzymatically to include higher concentration of SN2 and to be very fluid molecule ( no crystallization at low temperatures). This structure causes significant improvement in the liquidity of the membrane (it does not crystallize even at minus 20 degreesCelsius). Due to the membrane high fluidity, the bioactive is easily transported across the membrane and also transported to the organs and cells. The omega fatty monoglyceridesare softeningthe membrane as well, increasing the permeability of the cell. This effect is one of the important qualities of the present DHA formulation, which other fatty acids,including EPA, do not possess to the same extent.
    The researchers aim to obtain maximum DHA though the enzymatic process, in addition to quantitative transformation of SN2 to cause maximum bioavailabilityand better softening of the membrane.
    The enzymatic process used to manufacture AXOM3, allows preferential grafting of the DHA to the SN2 byinteresterification process, while other products in the market are simple extraction of the fish fat composed of everythingthat exist in the fish, which is not in a preferentially transformed to the SN2 position, but only in statistically manner.
    The manufacturing company chose to use tuna fishas a raw ingredients, because even though tuna is relatively low in omega fatty acids,it is rich in DHA in the SN2position.
    The overall result is that the re-esterified AXOM3is quantitatively absorbed (98%bioavailability), while in other products absorption varies depending on the origin of the fish, fishing season, water temperature and more.
    In some cases, the calculation of absorption are based on normalization of amount transported across the membrane and f 100% bioavailability calculations are based of absorption of free fatty or liver fat. The DHA ethyl esterare therefore absorption is of about 30%lower, whileAXOM3, which is DHA-TGis124%absorbed much above thenormalizedstandard.
    *This study measured absolute values for oral ingestion of 150 mg.
    In conclusion:
    Enzymatic modifications were made in the new AXOM3. As a result the amount of DHA in a triglyceride is at least 70%, while the rest of the fatty acidsare unsaturated (in comparison with the high percentage of saturated fatty acids in other products in the market today).
    The newAXOM3 contains DHA that isquantitatively transformedin the SN2 position over 80%), while the two other positionsare also rich in DHA, which gives the product maximum absorption capacity (because of it being unsaturated and given at temperatures 20% lower).

    - See more at: http://axom3.com/en/2011/08/02/bioavailability-–-כושר-ספיגה/#sthash.qKkYBR8l.dpuf
    yewwei.tan likes this.

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