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Sleep and Stress

Discussion in 'The Epi-Paleo Diet' started by QiGuy1997, Feb 11, 2014.

  1. QiGuy1997

    QiGuy1997 New Member

    I've seen Doctor Kruse discuss his ideas on how to achieve optimal sleep but something doesn't quite make sense to me about it. He says we should not eat too close to bed time, as any insulin from a meal that's sticks around in the blood will do all sorts of things, namely inhibit prolactin secretion, growth hormone secretion and interfere with cortisol rhythms. The only problem is, aren't all of these things positive things? Prolactin, growth hormone and cortisol are all stress hormones linked with lowered metabolisms and shortened life span, so shouldn't we be trying to suppress these hormones, the opposite of what Doctor Kruse seems to suggest? Perhaps the reason we see these surges of hormones while we sleep, as well as surges of adrenaline, is precisely because the body is under stress from the night-time fast and therefore releases stress hormones to, well, survive. Maybe we shouldn't see the effect of full liver-glycogen on sleep hormones as a suppressing effect, per se, but a relieving of the stressful state of the long night-time fast. I could be wrong here, this is just a quick jotting down of some of my thoughts. Let me know what you guys think!
  2. QiGuy1997

    QiGuy1997 New Member

    I just can't bring myself to believe that we would ever desire an inherently stressful state. Regeneration doesn't occur during stress.
  3. Gagnrad

    Gagnrad New Member

    But you've actually shifted what you're saying there. First, you put "interfere with cortisol rhythms" but now you're talking of suppressing cortisol. That's a different thing … assuming you even could do that.

    Rhythm implies a kind of cycle and AFAIK you're right to imply there is one. Best then to let that cycle run naturally. It tends to be the same with other hormones. You perhaps should be rather hungry in the morning -- some people have said so and have thought that the habit of skipping breakfast in the the morning is because people's hormonal cycles are off. Similarly, testosterone is (or should be) up in the morning, as you may have noticed from the fact that something else tends to be too at that time.

    The point seems to be to let hormonal cycles take place to the degree they should and at the right time. That generally going to be achieved by mimicking, as far as you can, conditions that have held throughout our evolution … which means doing the right things at the right time. Dr. Kruse tries to explain the scientific reasons why those tactics work, but it should be clear that they're going to on an intuitive basis.
  4. caroline

    caroline Moderator

    I like how you are thinking Mike...That is exactly what the reset does. It is all about resetting your Rolex. Timing is everything.
  5. Gagnrad

    Gagnrad New Member

    This is how I see it. It seems to me that otherwise you end up like a man who's using the escalators by trying to go "up the one that's coming down or down the one that's coming up" (to quote an old Benny Hill sketch).

    I think at a fundamental level you actually have to get back in sync with the planet. I can remember a few years back reading Lights Out and suddenly seeing sleep in relation to hormonal cascades triggered by light and dark and, therefore, in relation to the movement of the Earth as it spins through space.

    In some ways we've tried to build ourselves a bubble in which we try to do our own thing. But you can't. I think Erwan le Corre sees this very clearly in another way -- he expresses it by saying we've tried to turn ourselves into "zoo humans". And where most of the paleo world is running on a treadmill or lifting barbells in a regimented manner under artificial light, he's out there in Nature, moving naturally, reconnecting.
  6. caroline

    caroline Moderator

    Now you really have my attention! I love Erwan Lecorre! Did you listen to the webinar that JK did on that whole thing and the follow up Q&A with Erwan? He has so much passion and integrity and a simplicity that knocked me out! He and Jack together ....wow.

    To me - Jack's concepts are so simple ...we have to observe Mother nature - if we go too far astray we get sick.

    The concepts are simple but the science is hard!

    Did you listen to todays webinar? I wasn't able to and now I can't get it to play..........

    I think I asked you if you have read The Cosmic Serpent ... that was Erwan's suggestion to me - because all of that was so new to me.

    You seem to read sooooo much ... how do you manage that? I have a pile of books that I can't seem to get to - I am always stuck on the blogs!

    What time is it there?
  7. Gagnrad

    Gagnrad New Member

    No, I haven't heard that. It must be quite something.

    I forgot. You did. That would be this?


    I didn't know of it. thank you. I'll try to get hold of a copy.

    I am sceptical of the idea that we could simply make an earlier people's worldview our own -- although perhaps the author's not going that far. (Some people do seem to think in that way.) I think the same goes for Hinduism/Buddhism, which basically has a Bronze Age view with time as cyclic and the transmigration of souls and a number of other things that tend to go along with that. Thus I think that Buddhist meditational practice, for example, is vastly interesting and suggestive, but I think we left that view of the nature of things behind about two and half thousand years ago with the Ancient Greeks. There are traces of it still in Plato. It kind of goes along with that kind of agricultural civilisation, where people's experience is bounded by the growing seasons, the annual flooding of the Nile and so on. And when people began to study the heavens there were phenomena there that seemed to confirm that view to them.

    And again in the West we've been so influenced by the Ancient Hebrews who broke out of that way of thinking in another way. among other things, there Time begins to be seen in a totally different way -- as a story. I don't think it would be seriously possible for us to go back to earlier ways of thinking -- as if Athens and Jerusalem had never existed. Wouldn't that to be to "follow the deception of the thrush"?


    Could you see time as not linear? Isn't that implicit in the concept of evolution (and in many other of our ways of thinking), for example?

    However, I do think that the interest in these religions in the nineteenth century among people like the New England Transcendentalists is, like the rise of Romantic poetry (Wordsworth et al.), telling. People were sensing something in them that is missing in the post-Enlightenment view of things, in the Baconian view of science and so on. Interestingly, Francis Bacon wrote of the scientific method as "putting Nature on the rack", which is an odd way of thinking.

    I think Saruman in The Lord of the Rings is probably meant as something of a critique of the Baconian view of science. Notice that he makes himself a coat of many colours, failing to see that sometimes a whole can be more than the sum of its parts. (I think this may be based on Goethe's work on the rainbow, but I'm not fluent in German.)

    I do think we have to think analytically. But I think it's not the only way of thinking. I think some people in Paleo do, actually -- many can be very "scientistic". I wonder what they think poetry is for.
    Lahelada likes this.
  8. caroline

    caroline Moderator

    yes - that is the one!
  9. sooperb

    sooperb New Member

    I had a quick look at the synopsis, receiving knowledge while you're under the influence of a narcotic? I struggle with the concept and without reading the book, it colours my perception as to whether it's worth reading or not. I seem to remember I read a book by Isobel Losada who spent time with some sort of tribe and smoked their particular brand of hallucinogenic weed, an experience that she wasn't too sure about. She wrote a book afterwards though so maybe it helped lol.
  10. caroline

    caroline Moderator

    There is just so much there and I am totally fascinated.

    Jack had said that he and Erwan are at opposite ends of the spectrum and meet in the middle. Jack is a man of science and Erwan isn't .....but are they on the same wavelength - absolutely!

    Erwan gets it and Jack gets it ......and Jack has suggested since then - All the stuff that Erwan talks about is science too - we just don't know it yet! QED anyone???

    I wish everyone could listen to that webinar and Q&A .......
  11. QiGuy1997

    QiGuy1997 New Member

    I do see your point about encouraging the natural healthy cycles of hormones, but I'm not sure there is a healthy cycle of stress hormones. The cortisol/adrenaline/growth hormone/prolactin is secreted in response to falling energy reserves, low liver glycogen and what not. I don't see any beneficial reason to encourage a stressful state on the body and these hormones, even according to Doctor Kruse, are suppressed when food is eaten prior to bed. The suppression isn't a suppression, if anything it simply seems to be relieving the body from a stressful/low energy state.
  12. caroline

    caroline Moderator

    Have you read about the HPA?
  13. nonchalant

    nonchalant Silver

    But growth hormone is needed to repair the body, like the heart and nerves. Just because some hormones are secreted in response to stress, doesn't make them undesirable in other circumstances.

    I am disappointed if I awaken before 3am, because that means my window of maximum growth hormone has probably been cut short.

    Without the cortisol that starts increasing at 3-4am, I would have difficulty waking up, and I would have a low body temp and low blood pressure. I'd have to reread CT7 for the various uses of prolactin. But I'm sure nursing mothers would disagree that it is a stress hormone.
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
  14. QiGuy1997

    QiGuy1997 New Member

    I've read quite a bit about the HPA. Removal of the pituitary gland has actually been show to slow aging, at least in rats. Growth hormone has only been shown to negatively impact life-span. Reducing GH and IGF-1 has been associated with extended life. Cortisol does help you wake up, but I might prefer to tough out a slightly tired 20 minutes than possibly induce stress damage. Also, pregnancy and early motherhood seem to be quite stressful states and quite hard on the body. I'd hardly consider it an optimal state xD
  15. QiGuy1997

    QiGuy1997 New Member

    "The hypothesis that supraphysiological levels of GH can accelerate aging derives indirect support from findings in GH-deficient and GH-resistant mutant mice in which aging is delayed and the life-span is increased and from the reciprocal relationship of body size and longevity within species."
  16. QiGuy1997

    QiGuy1997 New Member

    "Resting O2 consumption rate (BMR) or minimal O2 consumption rate (MOC) declines with age. Data are presented that suggest that a newly described function of the pituitary may be responsible for a considerable part of the total 75% decline in the MOC with age. The new function appears to decrease the responsiveness of peripheral tissues to thyroid hormones. Response curves to injected thyroxine indicated that immature rats were three times more responsive to thyroxine than adult rats. All the major endocrine ablations were performed in this and earlier work, and only pituitary ablation (a) restored in adults part of the responsiveness to thyroxine found in immature rats and (b) arrested the normal age-associated decrease in responsiveness to thyroxine in immature rats. Bovine pituitary extracts were found that decreased the responsiveness of immature rats to thyroxine. Experiments with the new pituitary function suggested a possible endocrine mechanism to explain why partial starvation doubled the lifespan for rats only when started before puberty."
    Another interesting study.
  17. caroline

    caroline Moderator

    maybe you have an "ask Jack" question there?
  18. QiGuy1997

    QiGuy1997 New Member

    Perhaps. It depends totally on how many people I tutor AKA my income xD I also find I'm able to integrate more information together by scouring abstracts than receiving direct answers.
  19. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Life is not about avoiding stress.........it is 100% of how you respond to it.........because life is based upon stress at every turn. Adopting the correct attitude can convert an negative stressor into a positive one, the stress is not the determining factor on what happens.............it is the environmental charge that tells the story how life unfolds...........just like the redox potential does to a signaling molecule........in you.
  20. Josh

    Josh Gold

    I dare you to read Gurdjieff's "Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson". Forgive me if you already have....

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