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Discussion in 'Cold Thermogenesis' started by nonchalant, Mar 20, 2012.

  1. nonchalant

    nonchalant Silver

    So is shivering something you strive for? Or do you want to get to the point where you don't shiver any more? And what about shivering only after the bath?

    I am intrigued by AKMan's NST (non-shivering thermogenesis) posts.
  2. AKMan

    AKMan New Member

    Ok, here's another one to get you motivated, then! It is kind of mouse-based, but I think it applies to us as well.

    Alterations in nonshivering thermogenesis are presently discussed as being both potentially causative of and able to counteract obesity. However, the necessity for mammals to defend their body temperature means that the ambient temperature profoundly affects the outcome and interpretation of metabolic experiments. An adequate understanding and assessment of nonshivering thermogenesis is therefore paramount for metabolic studies. Classical nonshivering thermogenesis is facultative, i.e. it is only activated when an animal acutely requires extra heat (switched on in minutes), and adaptive, i.e. it takes weeks for an increase in capacity to develop. Nonshivering thermogenesis is fully due to brown adipose tissue activity; adaptation corresponds to the recruitment of this tissue. Diet-induced thermogenesis is probably also facultative and adaptive and due to brown adipose tissue activity. Although all mammals respond to injected/infused norepinephrine (noradrenaline) with an increase in metabolism, in non-adapted mammals this increase mainly represents the response of organs not involved in nonshivering thermogenesis; only the increase after adaptation represents nonshivering thermogenesis. Thermogenesis (metabolism) should be expressed per animal, and not per body mass [not even to any power (0.75 or 0.66)]. A ‘cold tolerance test’ does not examine nonshivering thermogenesis capacity; rather it tests shivering capacity and endurance. For mice, normal animal house temperatures are markedly below thermoneutrality, and the mice therefore have a metabolic rate and food consumption about 1.5 times higher than their intrinsic requirements. Housing and examining mice at normal house temperatures carries a high risk of identifying false positives for intrinsic metabolic changes; in particular, mutations/treatments that affect the animal's insulation (fur, skin) may lead to such problems. Correspondingly, true alterations in intrinsic metabolic rate remain undetected when metabolism is examined at temperatures below thermoneutrality. Thus, experiments with animals kept and examined at thermoneutrality are likely to yield an improved possibility of identifying agents and genes important for human energy balance.
  3. KiwiLauren

    KiwiLauren Gold

    So... does that mean slow and steady wins the race? Get cold adapted slower and shiver less? (vs my method which is shiver for hours after the bath, be miserable and crave carbs (which is possibly because it's activating metabolism as opposed to BAT?)? I'm too cold to think properly. Or maybe not cold enough?
  4. AKMan

    AKMan New Member

    And this one...basically this says that normal amounts of brown fat contribute to 5% of your metabolic rate. Just think, we can significantly grow our BAT through cold treatments, so in effect increase our metabolism.

    The incidence of the metabolic syndrome has reached epidemic levels in the Western world. With respect to the energy balance, most attention has been given to reducing energy (food) intake. Increasing energy expenditure is an important alternative strategy. Facultative thermogenesis, which is the increase in energy expenditure in response to cold or diet, may be an effective way to affect the energy balance. The recent identification of functional brown adipose tissue (BAT) in adult humans promoted a renewed interest in nonshivering thermogenesis (NST). The purpose of this review is to highlight the recent insight in NST, general aspects of its regulation, the major tissues involved, and its metabolic consequences. Sustainable NST in adult humans amounts to 15% of the average daily energy expenditure. Calculations based on the limited available literature show that BAT thermogenesis can amount to 5% of the basal metabolic rate. It is likely that at least a substantial part of NST can be attributed to BAT, but it is possible that other tissues contribute to NST. Several studies on mitochondrial uncoupling indicate that skeletal muscle is another potential contributor to facultative thermogenesis in humans. The general and synergistic role of the sympathetic nervous system and the thyroid axis in relation to NST is discussed. Finally, perspectives on BAT and skeletal muscle NST are given.
  5. AKMan

    AKMan New Member

    ha ha I know I haven't answered your question! I think nobody really knows what is better, but just getting cold without shivering is probably more do-able long-term, therefore more likely to be 'better', if only because you can keep on doing it. If you can freeze your butt off and keep doing it, that would probably get you there faster.

    All the studies you see discuss activating the BAT at chilly--not super cold temps, so I'm sure non-shivering is OK. Whether that means shivering madly is better, I do not know.
  6. I've read in detail almost all the studies - plus I've been watching this whole thing unfold since Jack started this series. I would advise to go slower. You should not be "real shivering" for the most part.

    You may be a great candidate for the bitter melon, taken 2 hrs prior to CT. Also make sure you have eaten prior, and that you drink icy cold water (this makes the core start to heat).

    From a long term perspective, you sound miserable! The ones who seem to be keeping it up long term are doing it as slow as THEY need to. There do seem to be some positives to be experienced along the way. Hours of shivering after seem to be making you miserable. Nobody will hit you if you back up a step and make sure you are adapting!
  7. Evo Mama

    Evo Mama New Member

    I'm not sure where (on the boards or the blog), but I def read somewhere that less shivering means you are getting cold adapted, but I think someone also said that Dr K said shivering is good. If you are miserable for so long after, I'd try dialing it back a bit. On the blog, the good doctor does recommend taking things slowly.
  8. Mikey7

    Mikey7 New Member

    Each person have a different shivering factor. Some don't shiver that much and some do. I've definitely shiver after and during full immersion.
  9. KiwiLauren

    KiwiLauren Gold

    I definitely eat right before (fat and protein) but I start shivering a bit as soon as I drink the ice water! (Albeit, it's a lot of ice, but still....). I would totally take the bitter melon seeing how I've already drank the Koolaid, but I cannot source it in New Zealand. I tolerate the ice packs pretty well but the baths leave me cold for hours and hours, so I think I'll take everyone's advice and dial it back. Thank you!
  10. tweety

    tweety New Member

    hmmmm.... I never shiver. I have only done about 5 baths. No idea what the temp is, but I dump in a medium load of ice (its not 20lbs, but its more than small) and I wear an ice pack on my torso. I am cold, and my skin is cold when I get out. But I feel warm immediately after and my legs, which I don't submerge, burn and radiate warmth. I sleep well but I notice my I usually wake up at some point in the night and my feet are freezing, which is odd because they never go in the water either.

    I have been on the Leptin rx forever, but really didn't see any signs until three weeks ago( when I gave up dairy finally- stubborn, right?). So I am having a hard time accepting that this is easy for me. No signs of benefits of CT yet, but its just easy. Makes me think my water is probably a lot warmer than I think!

    Can't wait until the thermometer gets here, because I will finally find out if my water is really warm or if I am adapting quickly.
  11. chocolate

    chocolate Silver

    I shivered horribly an hour after a ridiculously cold pool. I was perfectly comfortable in the pool, very strangely. I thought it must be because of carbs. I see the insulin jumping up in diabetics from protein. I thought that was where I was getting it. idk enough yet. I should reread the liver blog.
  12. villjamur_stevenson

    villjamur_stevenson New Member

    I measured my tub last night, up to 20 minutes immersion.

    My well water is 50 F in the tub.

    I have only shivered once, and it was my very first 5 minute immersion bath. After that, I have not shivered for cold showers, immersions, icepacks - not sure if that is good or bad.
  13. omlh@todmi.com

    omlh@todmi.com New Member

    My first bath I shivered violently (but also overdid it, probably hypothermic), and since then I haven't really shivered. I've been lowering the temperature of the water slowly every day. Today I had the weirdest sensation of everything inside me shivering whilst I was in the bath, and now my skin feels as though it's crawling. Is this a good thing, or not? I've also never shivered from the spot icing, nor from the cold showers - just this weird feeling following today's bath.
  14. meyoolia@gmail.com

    meyoolia@gmail.com New Member

    Bath number 12 last night (11 & 12 were at 48F) and as long as I can bop around and keep moving for 20 minutes or so afterward, I only spend the first 10-15 post-CT minutes shivering now. The first few dunks, I shivered madly for over an hour or so afterward - yay progress! And, science geek that I am, I started measuring pre and post CT water temps: #9, raised it from 50-53F in 40 minutes...#10 same... #11, 48-52F in 35 minutes... and last night, 48-53F in 40! I'm HOT! No actual tub shivering, just some 'buzzing' and goosebumps now and then. (and, yes, once I did measure immediately post and 40-minutes post tub temps - no change)
  15. Groketteliveson

    Groketteliveson New Member

    What's weird is some days I shiver and then some days I dont.
  16. Phoenix

    Phoenix New Member

    I've done 5 baths. The first 4 made me miserable pretty much all night long. Couldn't sleep because I was freezing, then couldn't stay asleep because of hot flashes.

    So I decided to dial it down a bit. Last night I upped the water temp by about 10 degrees. So I took a 65 degree bath. And yes, I was shivering even in 65 degrees. But I warmed up before bed, and didn't have any hot flashes at all last night.

    I read somewhere that Dr. Kruse said that 65 degrees is OK. You'll reach optimization, just more slowly than at 55. I plan on very slowly taking my water temp down to 55. I was pushing it too hard and too fast. So I'm really glad that I decided to warm things up a bit, rather than just quitting because I hated it so much.
  17. Croak

    Croak New Member

    I need a good couple hours after a soak before bed if I want to go to sleep "on time". CT soak too close to bedtime results in a racing mind for a good hour after lying down.
  18. differentstory

    differentstory New Member

    It's amazing how different we are. I fall asleep within 30 minutes of CT, so I have to do it at night. CT seems to exhaust me.
  19. Croak

    Croak New Member

    Keep in mind I've been doing this for over six weeks now.

    I added a second (well, first) session in the morning starting yesterday, and I'm bright-eyed and bushy-tailed for hours. Skipping lunch the last two days has been harder though, the morning soak (30 minutes, ~42F water) induces hunger a couple hours earlier than usual. And of course, with the evening soak, I wake up ready to eat a horse. :) That's going to make CRON harder for awhile, if I go that route.

    All that said, if I allow enough time between my soak and bed, I sleep great (but I was already sleeping great before that too, thanks to the LR).
  20. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    normal.....still happens to me after 6.5 yrs

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