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Secondary Hypogonadism - Help me get to the root cause

Discussion in 'Optimal Labs' started by kris90, Jul 22, 2016.

  1. kris90

    kris90 New Member

    Yes but if xeno/phytoestrogens are acting on my estrogen receptors at the hypothalamatic level, then it could be suppressing my GnRH and thus decreasing my LH/FSH. Kind of like the reverse of what Clomid does.

    If my brain (hypothalamus/pituitary) thinks my estrogen levels are high due to the estrogenic activity of the xeno/phytoestrogens, then it will downregulate to prevent excess sex hormone. Kind of like leptin resistance at the brain level, this could be a form of "estrogen resistance".
  2. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Good points, are you able to follow it thru?
    Check this pathway
    note that it is heavily dependent on fatty acids.
    Get this test done at LabCorp or Mayo clinic:

    Fatty Acid Profile, Comprehensive (C8-C26), Serum

  3. kris90

    kris90 New Member

    Interesting @JanSz

    So far, I cut out anything with xenoestrogens (i.e. deodorant, tooth paste, shaving cream) and use natural products like coconut oil and baking soda. I've cut soya out (from my canned sardines and salad dressing) because I know soya is often GMO, and contaminated with pesticides.

    I've been having weird reactions since. Lot's of diarrhea and stomach cramping. Maybe detoxing? No matter what I eat, it seems to occur. Maybe too much fat in my meals, and I should space it out a little more.

    One thing that baffles me is how well I maintain my muscle mass/lean physique with the T levels of a 90 year old man. Must be the 2x daily CT sessions cuz I've stopped lifting weights for now.
    JanSz likes this.
  4. kris90

    kris90 New Member

    My plan (assuming estrogen toxicity is the cause of my suppressed LH/FSH/T and elevated SHBG):

    -Shitloads of sunlight (AM sunrise, and AM UV)
    -Epi Paleo diet, leptin rx style meal pattern (Breakfast, Dinner)
    -Adding flaxseeds to diet
    -Supplement with liver detox supp (w/ NAC, Milk Thistle, Curcumin, etc)
    -Supplement with DIM
    -Exercise 3x week weights
    -Daily CT sessions
    -Minding light cycles, blue blockers for protection, no lights after sunset, etc

    @JanSz as much as I want to do this naturally, I'm actually thinking maybe it would be wise to go back on Clomid during my estrogen detox. My theory is that Clomid will bind to the estrogen receptors freeing up the xeno/toxic estrogens that may help my body flush them out easier using the above strategies. Additionally, it will give me a bit of a boost in LH/FSH/T to help give me some energy. I feel it would have no harm. Clomid has never really worked for getting my levels up to where they need to, so atleast if I get bloodwork after a month of the above protocol + Clomid, and my levels skyrocket, I'll know there'll be hope that coming off Clomid shouldn't cause me to crash if I've successfully addressed the problem (assuming its xenoestrogen toxicity).

  5. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    NO to flax seed.
    Yes to fatty acids analysis

    Remind me why rather than Clomid you could not use HCG to boost TTest?
    Artificial lighting management for a human locked in small room.
  6. kris90

    kris90 New Member

    I'm VERY determined to be off all meds. Clomid is one step closer to no meds than HCG.

    HCG = suppression of LH/FSH, but high T
    Clomid = upregulation of LH/FSH, hopefully high T

    HCG is great, I honestly love it. But I really think I can heal my body naturally. I am not sure if I am ready for lifelong commitment of HCG and/or TRT being 26 years old. I feel I am close.

    Thinking Clomid will help block action of toxic estrogens, and my plan will hopefully flush them out.

    2 choices I am giving myself:
    1) Do my detox, no meds
    2) Do my detox with Clomid

    Not ready to go the HCG/TRT route just yet, although I know it gives me success (just not in the most natural way possible).
  7. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    I expect that someone on this board will (finally) figure out a way to raise LH (may be even FSH) (in a practical way, applicable to normal daily life) without use of HCG.

    Problem is, there is not that many men that have good testicles and low LH.

    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
    kris90 likes this.
  8. kris90

    kris90 New Member

    I've been reading Ray Peat's recommendations on Thyroid & Testosterone optimization, and everything he is saying pretty well goes against what is preached here:

    -Increase fructose intake (from fruits)
    -Eat more sugary foods and less starch
    -Get more protein from milk than meats
    -Eat something sugary before bed
    -Avoid PUFAs (even DHA/EPA) and eat mostly saturated fats
    -Don't workout late in the day (optimal time he says is 11:00 AM - 3:00 PM)
    -Use red lights right up until bed time

    His recommendations are to help reduce inflammation to optimize thyroid, and the diet is meant to lower serotonin, estrogen and prolactin and raise dopamine which helps testosterone.

    No mention of seasonal eating (i.e. no carbs in winter). I know Jack says Peat is full of half truths. This seems very counterintuitive to what is preached here, but it does intrigue me. I am desperate at this point and will try pretty much everything to get my T levels where they need to be naturally.

    Maybe I'm becoming ignorant due to low dopamine?
    JanSz likes this.
  9. LinD

    LinD New Member

    I realize this is an old post.... do have a full iron panel, by chance.

    I recall recently coming across this situation while looking up iron overload/toxicity/hemochromatosis.
    High iron could be the reason for the hypothyroidism and more....
  10. kris90

    kris90 New Member

    Hi Lind, thanks for replying.

    I don't have a full Iron panel, but every time I had Ferritin checked it was always on the low side. It wasn't until about a year ago I was able to bring it up closer to optimal:

    Ferritin: 108 ug/L (ref: 22 - 334)

    My latest suspicion is that my high PUFA intake and chronic keto-ing when I'm already lean has been wreaking havoc on my body. I'm following Ray Peat's advice now on a low PUFA, moderate protein, high saturated fat/MUFA, higher carb diet such as:

    Shellfish, whole milk, cheese, eggs, beef, pork, gelatin supplement, organic whole grain bread, rice, raw fruits & veggies, honey and OJ. I'm going to rest as much as I can, and just focus on refeeding my body whatever it wants, and get tons of sleep, and hopefully I can recover once and for all! I've also stopped CT, because it was probably too stressful.

    Restricted diets aren't for me.
  11. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    came to similar conclusion.
    Eats rice and sugar.
    And like results.
    @Jack Kruse hinted it may work for him because he is from tropics and lives in tropics.
    Cairns, Australia
    Cairns, Queensland,16.9205° S
  12. kris90

    kris90 New Member

    So far the results have been great and it's only been a few days. On keto, I was having diarrhea, and terribly dry skin. Since cutting out PUFAs and adding sugar and some starches back, I'm already feeling better, and even dropped some weight and feel leaner/tighter!

    If coupling efficiency is linked to environment, then I should be loosely coupled (it is still winter here in Ottawa), BUT, I am tanning at a salon 3x per week, so maybe the UV light exposure is keeping me tightly coupled, and that's why keto was a poor choice for me.

    BUT, about a year ago, I ate a ton of pasta casseroles, bread, ice cream, chocolate and always had my largest meal with tons of carbs (i.e. 150g carbs) at night before bed around 7 PM, and I was the most shredded in my life (7% bodyfat) strong in the gym, high T levels, good labs and felt amazing. I really think eating well balanced, and managing PUFA intake is the key for me.
    fitness@home likes this.
  13. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    One way to look at starches intake,
    it your fasting insulin is 2-3 you are not taking too much.
  14. kris90

    kris90 New Member

    From back when I got an ASI a few years ago:

    Fasting: < 3 (3-12 uIU/mL)
    Non-Fasting: 3 (5-20 uIU/mL)

    I would assume nothing has changed. If anything, I'm healthier now (better glucose control) than I was.
    JanSz likes this.
  15. kris90

    kris90 New Member

    Things are going well. I'd be curious to know what my T levels are, because I've noticed a definite boost in libido and wellbeing. I feel more enthusiastic in general. Almost feels like I'm coming out of hibernation! Also skin is improving (had eczema) and eyes looking less inflammed (bloodshot).

    Will get levels checked in a few more weeks. Going to continue to refeed my body. No workouts, no CT, no stress, just focusing on eating and sleeping. Temperatures are very stable now at 37 C, sometimes slightly higher. I can literally feel my thyroid working optimally now whereas I used to always have hypo symptoms and high TSH levels (above 4.0 mIU/L).

    Diet has been:
    -Shrimp, mussels, eggs, cheese, milk, beef, pork
    -Coconut oil, GF butter, olive oil (raw)
    -Whole grain bread, basmati rice, potatoes
    -Apples, berries, oranges, honey, carrots, peas, leafy greens, tomatoes
    -Chocolate, ice cream

    PUFAs are limited to around 7-10g per day.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2017
  16. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    It is more about balancing than actual levels.
    Individual blood tests are good but you will do better with panels.
  17. MSH

    MSH New Member

    Kris 90,

    I'd be interested to see how it goes with the changes you've made to more of a Peat lifestyle. Keep us informed please.
    kris90 likes this.
  18. kris90

    kris90 New Member

    So far I've noticed I've become more "alive". Almost as if I'm coming out of hibernation. I realised sugar gives me a lot of energy. I have an improved sense of wellbeing, feel almost "high" after meals, as if my reward system is being honored.

    Libido has improved substantially, and morning wood everyday.

    Also, happy to announce, my wife is pregnant! Baby #2, here we come! :) It actually happened back in February when my T levels were on the decline, but still within the normal range (before my rock bottom crash).

    I'll be going for bloodwork in a couple weeks to see where I'm at. Currently taking 25mg of Clomid per day. If results are good on Clomid, then I know it was my diet that contributed, and I'll taper off the Clomid if my levels are up.
  19. MSH

    MSH New Member

    Sounds like everything is going well! Congrats on baby #2! I an definitely interested to see what your blood work reveals.

    Btw, are you eating ice cream at night before you go to bed? Are you experiencing any blood sugar swings? Are you feeding frequently, lots of high sugar snacks?

  20. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Congratulations on your #2!!

    Currently taking 25mg of Clomid per day.

    You are taking Clomid.
    Clomid is a part of fertility therapy.


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