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Raynaud Thread

Discussion in 'Cold Thermogenesis' started by villjamur_stevenson, Oct 10, 2012.

  1. villjamur_stevenson

    villjamur_stevenson New Member

    well, I hate to jinx it but something seems to be working. My hands have been appreciably better last two days. Since I typically use the shotgun approach rather than the single shot - I'll post everything I've tried since this started acting up.
  2. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Raynaud's in my opinion is a lack of bio-energenics in the vascular smooth muscles causing a lack of extracellular adenosine which cause reactive vasoconstriction to any stimulus. Anything tied to the MG ATPase function improves it. Mg, avoidance of calcium, D-Ribose, Phosphate, L-carnitine, DHA and Iodine help reverse it.
    CjHedberg and mamadell like this.
  3. villjamur_stevenson

    villjamur_stevenson New Member

    Thanks Dr. Kruse.

    Just so everyone is caught up to speed. I've never suffered from Raynaud's before.

    When I initially started CT in February, I had an issue where my toe or finger would go numb during the warm up phase. So I knew what Raynaud's was after searching for information on this. But I had never heard of it before. However, once I started keeping my fingers and toes out of the water, this never happened again. So I've been doing this all spring, all summer without any issues.

    Then something changed in early October. I suddenly became cold intolerant - CT sessions were a struggle. And one day I was out mini-golfing in 50 F weather, and my hands had went all white and numb. It freaked me out. My hands were constantly cold, and I kept having mini raynaud's flares throughout the day. I was getting really worried that I messed something up in my biochemistry. Pretty much since the mini-golf incidence, my hands haven't been normal - and been cold every day.

    I've been reading and researching Raynaud's as best I can, and trying many different things.

    I started with upping my magnesium supplementation and taking epsom salt baths. I also started the Army protocol I posted in this thread, basically keeping the hands warm - cooling the trunk of the body - then warming back up - so you create a pavlov's response to cold weather. I can't say if this was working or not. Last week I started eating Brazil Nuts - taking with Vitamin C. On Saturday I started taking DHEA (because 7-keto couldn't be found and my order won't be here til later this week), Vitamin E, and MSM (from LEF recommendations). I have been eating scallops, alaskan salmon, and shrimp steadily this summer, but will add oysters to that mix as soon as i can find some. L-carnitine was next on my list, but i haven't tried that yet.

    Anyway, my hands stopped feeling cold all the time Saturday night, and all day Sunday.

    My intuition is telling me it was the DHEA - but the reality is, with this scattered approach I may never know what worked.

    However, if it isn't broke - dont' fix it. So I am going to keep doing everything I'm doing now - fingers crossed.
  4. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    I personally think it is the quick acting hormone system eicosanoids have gotten better......what controls it? BG 5 and all things mentioned above. At the core it is an Mg and adenosine issue that the Cox and Lox enzymes react too.
  5. interesting stuff...i working on a fix for raynauds as well. wondering have you had your O3/O6 tested? I just found out my EPA is higher than DHA or something like that. I take tons of Mg and eat plenty of iodine. hmmm...thanks for keeping us posted on your n=1
  6. AKMan

    AKMan New Member

    I don't think you really have Reynaud's. My son does, he's had it all his adult life. His fingertips turn blue as blue can be if he doesn't wear gloves/handwarmers in even fairly mild temps. True Reynaud's isn't just numb fingertips after CT'ing--that's actually fairly normal and not limb-threatening like Reynaud's.

    I noticed the numbness last winter when CT'ing. Didn't CT all summer, but had a few times fishing in cold water and cleaning fish that were packed in ice where my fingertips would go numb. I've been CT'ing about a month now, fingertips went numb at first, but not in the last 3 weeks. I ate very seasonally this past year, lots of fruit all summer, tubers late sumer and still now, but quit all fruit about 30 days ago. Lots of seafood throughout.

    When my fingers were going numb, it would just be one or two and it lasts maybe 30-45 minutes. With true Reynaud's, it's all finger's effected and it doesn't go away without serious warming effort.

    I've seen many people write on this forum about numbness in fingers/toes. My impression: Not Reynaud's Syndrome or Phenomenon.

  7. villjamur_stevenson

    villjamur_stevenson New Member

    Hi Akman,

    I appreciate your input. Your posts are some of the best around here.

    I would tend to agree with you that I do not have Raynaud's - if you go by my earlier symptoms.

    However, on the day I was outside mini golfing - my fingers in both hands got splotchy colors and then turned all white. Then they went numb. It wasn't easy to warm them back up. I had to use a combination of warm water and the windmill techniques. And, after that day - every day going forward I struggled with my hands. At work, I'm in a 74 office - putting my hands on a cold glass would trigger a reaction in my hands. Something changed that day, and it continued going forward. Until this past weekend, now my hands seem like they are back to normal - but I don't want to jinx it : )
  8. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Phenomena to Syndrome to disease are all train stops on the same line.......the difference is intensity and duration but a problem with the underlying fast acting eicosanoids system is the problem.
    gokhals likes this.
  9. Endless

    Endless Guest

    Hmmm, interesting. My mother has it and it is often just one extremity at a time affected. Never heard that before that it has to be all of them.

  10. Yes, biology operates on a cyclical continuum, naturally. Diabetes might start with that first twinkie as a kid. But issues and mismatches pile up, and before you know it, you are feeling not so right, then downright awful, with full-blown type 2 diabetes. Damage done. Also explains why it takes a while to become cold adapted, moving from a warm-adapted state/metabolism to another along a continuum. No silver bullets. No dramatic instantaneous results. Just slow, steady, but often nonlinear, cyclical progress toward a future, healthier state. Each person's journey different, but yet amazingly the same. We are culturally expecting instant gratification, but nothing in nature suggests that health is mandated, desired, or authorized when eating or acting outside of nature's mandate. Our big brains can imagine outside nature's mandate and that becomes our mismatch, because our imagination then creates into reality the mismatches of our being.
  11. villjamur_stevenson

    villjamur_stevenson New Member

    So things are better, but not perfect. I'm not sure if it is because I'm good at avoiding cold surfaces now or if my shotgun method is working.

    So, if you were going to get some labs done - what would everyone recommend?

    I'm going to at least request:

    Thyroid panel

    Vitamin D level

    Iron levels
  12. Maybe add O3:O6 ratio test.
  13. villjamur_stevenson

    villjamur_stevenson New Member

    I thought about, but I'm kind of pushing my limits I think going to a GP with the list I got.

    Depending on how these initial labs come through, I'm going to schedule an appt with my wife's naturopath and I'll try to get the O3:O6 ordered then.

    I've been eating wild salmon, scallops, and shrimp like crazy all summer!
  14. docwatt@gmail.com

    docwatt@gmail.com New Member

    Interesting thread. I've just started developing the same phenomenon in my toes and the fingers of my left hand after my cold showers. Our tap water temp had dropped from 70 in the summer to barely 50. My CT consists mostly of cold showers. I tried keeping my hands out of the cold water and had the same effect with onset after drying off. I spend no more than 10 min in the shower. My O6:03 ratio was about 3, and I'm taking 850 mg of Mg as Malate and 354 mg as Threonate/day. Get at least 6 fish meals/week.
  15. villjamur_stevenson

    villjamur_stevenson New Member

    Well, got some of my labs back.
    I am iron deficient - makes me feel better that this can cause cold hands, feet, and noses.
    After 3 years of giving blood every 8 weeks - finally caught up to me : )
  16. villjamur_stevenson

    villjamur_stevenson New Member

  17. villjamur_stevenson

    villjamur_stevenson New Member

    Well, I asked and i found a better paper that is free. I'm still not sure if I am "just" anemic or if I do have Raynaud's. But at some point, maybe i should make an iron/anemia thread:




  18. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    "functional consequence of iron-deficiency anemia in the balance of heat production and loss and suggests that thyroid-hormone metabolism may be responsible."


    Iron def. anemia means less O2.  Less O2 means not enough substrate to accept electrons from mitochondria........this means that a lack of energy substrates implies a severe mitochondrial deficiency.  They tie this to thyroid hormone issues which is a correct......hypothyroidism also underpins mitochondrial inefficiency and usually Leptin resistance..........Everything ties back to energy issues........substrate and efficiency are tied to anemia.........double whammy to mitochondria.
  19. Shijin13

    Shijin13 Guest

    Wow all I can say is wow The final peice falls into place Anemia in college was probably the 1st domino.
  20. villjamur_stevenson

    villjamur_stevenson New Member

    just thought I'd post an update to my experience here:

    I'm still supplementing with extra iron, since my iron stores were depleted. But that should stop soon.

    Anyway, I've had my ups and downs - but never had a full blown attach of Raynaud's like the one I had in September.
    My fingers no longer get tingly or numb either, when my torso is exposed to cold.
    However, my hands to feel cold still for most of the day.

    But - I have noticed the following - following a high calorie meal, the veins in my hands bulge and my body pumps out heat like crazy.
    It is only times when I've been fasting/haven't eaten in a while, that my hands (and nose) get cold.

    Is this is normal cold adaption or is something else going on?

    I haven't shivered from being cold for as long as I can remember (since august maybe?)

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