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Quiting 5 months of testosterone replacement therapy. HELP!

Discussion in 'Heal Your Hormones' started by chrisrw1989, Oct 18, 2019.

  1. chrisrw1989

    chrisrw1989 New Member

    Can someone direct me to some threads on this subject. I'll gladly share my story, but don't want to waste anyone's time if there is already information on how to heal and mitigate side effects coming off testosterone therapy. Thanks in advance!
  2. Sun Disciple

    Sun Disciple AKA Paul...That Call Drop'n Canadian

    Kris 90 has some threads on this subject. CT is gonna be your friend to offset symptoms of low T should you not bounce back right away.. Morning sunrises start the hormonal cascade and uv light is the reverse feedback loop to signal it off. Get with that rhythm. Red light on the balls is also good for fertility as well I boosted my sperm count tremendously by consistently getting them in sunlight or red light device every morning. doesnt work for everybody but clomid can help restart your hpta. Im sure @JanSz will chime in here shortly.
    chrisrw1989 likes this.
  3. chrisrw1989

    chrisrw1989 New Member

    @Sun Disciple I really appreciate the advice! I will definitely start using CT right away, is morning best for CT? I can watch the sun rise for sure, but I'm at work by that time most days. I will try and figure a way to to get at least some red light on the boys!
  4. kris90

    kris90 New Member

    CT works anytime of day. Don't stress yourself over the details. It will improve receptor binding affinity making your blood lab numbers irrelevant.

    You will want to work with an expert, likely an Endocrinologist or Urologist who has experience helping men successfully restart their HPTA. Typically it involves bridging the T administration with HCG monotherapy followed by Clomid with a taper-off. While you are doing the HPTA restart, you can focus on fixing your environment so that you can sustain normal T secretion patterns. As mentioned by Paul, the best way to do this is get your circadian rhythm sorted out by following the light cycles.

    Lastly, you need to look at others stressors in your environment, as all stress causes overfiring of the brainstem (PVN) which can cause chronic pregnenolone steal syndrome and deplete your T by converting most of your substrate into the cortisol/stress pathway. The best way to tackle this is to practice mindfulness, deep breathing and meditation, and realise that everything about you is perfect the way it is. Every fear or anxiety you face simply is an illusion you are creating. Living in the present moment and becoming an observer of your mind (rather than letting your mind control and dictate your life) is the key for ending pain and suffering. The quantum zeno effect states that when you observe an effect (i.e. a thought, feeling or belief) it changes the reality you experience by "pausing" that effect for as long as it is being observed. This means you can control your reality, but it takes practice and becoming mindful.
    Sun Disciple and chrisrw1989 like this.
  5. chrisrw1989

    chrisrw1989 New Member

    @kris90 thank you, will definitely get on this right away!
    kris90 likes this.
  6. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Why have you been using supplemental testosterone?
    You may want to post your story here.
    chrisrw1989 likes this.
  7. chrisrw1989

    chrisrw1989 New Member

    Yes @JanSz, I've been getting weekly injections from a clinic since mid May 2019.

    May 2019, I tested to see what I was working with so I could optimize my natural levels. The results came back at a "low" 336 out of a 350-1000 range of total testosterone. This surprised me because I thought I was doing all the right things and I felt pretty good as I was eating ketogenic with Intermittent fasting, lifting heavy weights, and sleeping alright. I decided to go ahead and get treatment as they sell it pretty well if you don't know any better. I ignored my instincts here as I was having ego driven fantasies.

    Test Therapy:
    The initial shot was 200mg testosterone cypionate, followed with weekly injections of 140mg. I re-tested and my levels were up to 707 after six weeks, we decided to up my dose another 20mg's to 160mg. Another six weeks went by and I re-tested, this time it was a day late and my levels came back a little lower at a 586 which they said was normal, but we decided to move up to 180mg's. I was on the 180mg until i quit but I started this dose around the same time I found Dr Kruse online.

    Work Environment:
    So as a job I work as a maintenance planner at a cold storage warehouse facility. Most of my work is done on the computer, which I would say is about 9-9.5 hours a day, 5-6 days a week. I have two screens at my computer, we recently "upgraded" all our lighting to LED, They have really strong wifi routers throughout the facility, and the operations crew uses RF guns. I listen to podcasts most the time and have enjoyed hours of listening to "health and diet" type podcasts. Dr Kruse was a guest on one of those podcast, and the stuff he was saying really resonated with me, so I dove down this incredible rabbit hole.
    My work environment is what i believe to be over half of the reason my t was low in the first place (blue light toxicity)

    I'm currently reading several of his recommended books including the Epi-Paleo Rx as I can't seem to get enough of this stuff. I have the blue blocking glasses for work and night time, I've been watching the sunrise for the past two months or so and I'm playing around with the CT now.

    Two weeks ago (Oct. 4th) I decided to stop the treatment as I believed that I could fix the issue with nature instead of a needle. I was honestly pretty scared to come off of it as it did give me a lot of confidence and made me feel like my best self, but I know I'm hurting myself in the long run and I believe with the wisdom on this site I could come off of it and get myself back to optimal naturally.

    I apologize for the scattered way this is written, my focus hasn't been 100 percent lately. I sincerely appreciate all the help.
    Carol Palmer likes this.
  8. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Have you ever tested (in the same blood draw) for LH and FSH, estradiol, estrone, some other and total testosterone, and free testosterone?

    What is your mindset? Are you generally superman go-getter, or rather average Joe?

    Financially/family, are you able to become nomad, changing drastically where you live by thousands of miles, changing countries of residence, or you must stay in place?

    chrisrw1989 likes this.
  9. chrisrw1989

    chrisrw1989 New Member

    The last time I tested LH and FSH was before treatment in may.
    Total T was 336
    LH was at 4.7.
    was 2.2.
    was at 26.0
    was 39.7

    August 10th right before the 180mg dose.
    Total T was 586 on day 8.
    Estradial was 46.2
    was 31.6

    Other concerns from Aug 10th test
    Glucose level was 124
    Hematacrit was 50.2
    I donated blood a few weeks after being told to by the doctor.
    but that is all the lab info I was given.

    My Mindset would say is closer to being a go-getter as I usually take things the extra mile, but I've been lazy before.
    I have 4 young children ages 7, 7, 5, 3. three girls, youngest is a boy.

    I'm not poor, but I am pretty broke currently as I've been fighting to keep my oldest daughter with us for the past 2.5 years in an relentless custody case.

    I currently live in the Northern side of Fort Worth, Texas around the 33 latitude, I'd like to be closer to the Gulf but not really an option for me currently.
  10. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Total T was 336
    was at 4.7.
    Luteinizing Hormone (LH)Adult Male (mIU/mL): 1.7−8.6

    Your pituitary was not impressed seeing low Total Testosterone.
    There is a chance that pituitary overall have problem.
    Consider checking other pituitary hormones.
    If suspect, get pituitary MRI.

    Hormones of pituitary:

  11. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    You are saying day 8.
    I understand that you said that because you are doing weekly shots.
    If you will continue on injectable testosterone (which I guess will be your most effective way),
    you should do more freequent injections. That should lower your (higher now) E2.
    Divide your weekly dose into E2D or E3D
    On 180mg E7D you got TT=586ng/dL
    That is still marginally low TT, you can easily go to 700 or 800 (if not for hematocrit).
    180mg of 200mg/cc testosterone is (180/200)*100=90units on insulin syringe
    it is 90/7*2=25.71-->27units each shot if done E2D
    it is 90/7*3=38.57-->39units each shot if done E3D
    When you are using suplemental testosterone with time your testicles will shrink.
    To prevent that you need to use HCG injections.

    likely you will be using HCG (and are not injecting testosterone at present time)
    you may want to check if possibly HCG alone would raise your testosterone sufficiently.

    Keep eye on hematocrit, hemoglobin and red blood cells
    Adult males: 42%-54%hematocrit

    more than 17.5 grams (g) of hemoglobin per deciliter (dL) of blood for men and 15.5 g/dL for women.

    A normal range in adults is generally considered to be 4.35 to 5.65 million red blood cells per microliter (mcL) of blood for men and 3.92 to 5.13 million red blood cells per mcL of blood for women.

    If need for phlebotomies persists,
    reduce iron/heme foods,
    check for hemochromatosis

    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
  12. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    When your testosterone is about under control
    erection problems may be from:

    high or highish E2
    high o highish prolactin
    low 5aDHT
    highish or low progesterone
    high SHBG
  13. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

  14. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    You are or may be on life long project of frequent injections.
    When/if you get there
    keep in mind that there is a way to combine a variety of content into one syringe to avoid frequent skin penetrations

    Testosterone Cypionate (or other)(oil)
    HCG (water)
    MT-2 (water)
    other peptides (water)

    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
  15. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Supplemental testosterone cypionate
    by injection, especially when done infrequently, tends to raise E2, estradiol.
    That may increase chances of the need to use aromatase inhibitors
    most often, Arimidex (anastrozole).

    Not sure how that works with testosterone undecanoate (Nebido) that was designed to be injected infrequently.

    as a gel (or other topical)
    is applied to the skin
    The skin contains reductase.
    Reductase in the skin converts testosterone into DHT (mostly 5a-DHT).
    The larger the skin area involved, the more conversion there will be.
    That is usually undesirable (but not always).
    When you are on the project where you want to adjust/optimize as many items you are able, you may use it to your advantage.
    Compounding pharmacies (hey hey @MITpowered26 ) can provide a variety of densities.
    Also, a variety of bases can be used.
    It pays to discuss that with (good) compounding pharmacist and give your doctor feedback.

    There are two densities of Androgel, 1% and 1.62%
    They are expensive, including their generic versions, but maybe what works.

    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
  16. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    @Jack Kruse
    Following Jack can only help you.
    Wherever you are, you must think and keep reinforcing Circadian Rhythm.
    Epi-Paleo Rx will work for everybody.
    But remember that some lifestyles are practically beyond any correction.
    We have to be thankful to these people for their sacrifice, similarly, as we should to soldiers, police officers, and firefighters — night shift workers.
    Astronauts, international pilots, and crews come to mind.
    Most people usually stay in place or at small latitude variations.
    Generally, what you eat (solids, liquids) according to Epi-Paleo Rx will vary depending on latitude.
    There are also significant variations in deuterium content, depending on locations.

    Jack discusses a lot about how mitochondrial works.
    Medical schools teach that we create 0.35 liters of metabolic water daily at rest.
    Most, if not all, theories and advice of proper lifestyle, mostly without realizing that, are set around this 0.35 liters.
    Now dr Boros is coming with a bomb, paradigm change, I think.
    He figured that we are making way over 7000 liters of brand new water daily when at rest.
    If correct, that can change upside down many hypotheses.
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
    Josie Thomson likes this.
  17. chrisrw1989

    chrisrw1989 New Member

    @JanSz I don’t plan on taking any more injections or medication as I want to do everything I can to do fix myself naturally. Thank you for all of your input, I appreciate your time.
    Carol Palmer likes this.
  18. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Good plan.
    I hope that you are successful.
    Please keep us posted.

    chrisrw1989 likes this.
  19. kris90

    kris90 New Member

    You may not have a problem at all. You said you felt good despite clocking in at 336 ng/dl. Hell, I feel excellent at that level...

    IF and keto is going to naturally lower your T levels. Keto/IF is a small part of the winter pathway that allows you to burn fat while keeping your hormones bound tighter to the receptors. That's why you can feel fine on low serum T, if the androgen receptors are holding onto that T.

    It's all in CT 6 as Jack lays out beautifully: https://jackkruse.com/cold-thermogenesis-6-the-ancient-pathway/

    If you have signs of leptin sensitivity, decent body composition, and decent mood, your T levels are probably a non-issue. I stopped caring what my levels were when I realised I could easily go 24 hours without food, remain 10% bodyfat or under with decent muscle mass, a solid libido and good moods. Also fertility and normal sperm counts.
    chrisrw1989 likes this.
  20. chrisrw1989

    chrisrw1989 New Member

    thank you @JanSz, I sure will!

    @kris90, I'm brand new to the forum but I learn and adapt fast. I am starting to realize a lot of the dietary knowledge I have was very useful, but wrongly applied! example: Intermittent Fasting during the day when in reality night time is optimal. I plan on eating mostly carnivorous through the winter, and I wasn't aware of the decrease in T in the winter but that makes so much sense.

    Thank you all for your help!
    kris90 likes this.

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