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Preventing Toxic Effects of DHA?

Discussion in 'The Epi-Paleo Diet' started by QiGuy1997, Dec 22, 2013.

  1. QiGuy1997

    QiGuy1997 New Member

    So, I have to say, I'm quite sold on Dr. Kruse's ideas on the importance of DHA in the brain. However, I'm also convinced by Ray Peat's arguments that DHA is toxic to mitochondria and suppresses proper mitochondrial respiration. There are studies showing that as an organism ages, it's cardiolipin, a protein present in the cellular respiration enzyme cytochrome c oxidase, becomes more unsaturated and loses the presence of saturated palmitic acid. This deterioration reduced mitochondrial respiration as can be seen in this study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3351630. Is this the choice, then? Do we have to choose between fully functional mitochondria and well structured neurons? Does anybody know of a way to prevent mitochondrial uptake of DHA and make sure it only concentrates in neurons?
     
  2. HoneyChild

    HoneyChild Gold

    I don't know but Jack has always said that eating DHA in its evolutionary package is better than a supplement. The two are very different. Also it's better to eat raw/undercooked seafood if possible.
     
  3. Jonathin

    Jonathin Gold Member

    Seems like horrible research. A diet of purified casein, corn starch, sugar and corn or sardine oil . . . please! Is this science?
    This is troubling but not because it indicts DHA of malfeasance.
     
  4. QiGuy1997

    QiGuy1997 New Member

    Good point Jonathan. However, even on such a poisonous diet, the animals' mitochondria fared better on the DHA free diet than the one with DHA. It still seems to suggest potential damage to mitochondria.
     
  5. nonchalant

    nonchalant Silver

    Dr. Kruse has said that when we eat seafood, the DHA is reserved for the brain. DHA isn't normally used for fuel.
     
  6. QiGuy1997

    QiGuy1997 New Member

    This study seems to show the DHA being incorporate into the cardiolipin, not used for energy. Maybe the iodine prevents the cardiolipin from taking up DHA? I wish we had studies on that.
     
  7. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    This thread is really problematic for me. Citing bad science and Peat all in one invokes shades of why I had to ban BigPoppaChakra. The scent is discernible, like rancid fish oil in this diet. Jonathin is spot on. I'm wondering if we have a new name and the same old nonsense.
     
  8. QiGuy1997

    QiGuy1997 New Member

    Sorry Dr. Kruse, I was just trying to make sense of all the conflicting theories. Big Papa got banned? That's too bad. Peat seems to provide at least some pretty valid thoughts and I was trying to synthesize his thoughts on fish oil with yours; a quite difficult goal.
     
  9. nonchalant

    nonchalant Silver

    It would be difficult to coordinate Dr. Kruse's ideas with others, because others do not have his insight into our true nature. How does Peat feel about the fact that our bodies work in a quantum fashion, as well as having backup chemical energy sources?
     
  10. QiGuy1997

    QiGuy1997 New Member

    Based on your comment about the rancid fish oil, I assume you think that unoxidized, stable DHA would not have these suppressive effects on the cardiolipin? Would it not be taken up, or would it be taken up and just not reduce the cellular respiration. If you could point me to studies on DHA's true effect on cellular respiration, I would very much appreciate it. I was really confused when Peat stated that DHA supresses mitochondrial function considering your well supported evidence that the most metabolically active tissue, the brain, also has the most DHA in it.
     
  11. QiGuy1997

    QiGuy1997 New Member

    Ray Peat does support Gilbert Ling's ideas of Association Induction as opposed to the cell-membrane, using structured water and what not. He believes that sugar burning is a better way to stabilize the coherent structure of the cell, but that's a whole different discussion! xD I'm thoroughly convinced that one of the chief effectors of health is mitochondrial respiration so I'm trying to get to the bottom of what increases mitochondrial respiration and what harms it. When I read Peat's ideas on fish oil, I didn't want to believe that DHA harmed mitochondria and I figured no one could refute his DHA thoughts better than the people at this forum!
     
  12. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Fish oil does not and never will equal food with DHA. Peat does not understand that and never has.
     
  13. RickD

    RickD New Member

    To follow up on Jack's Statement above when fish oil is processed it changes from a triglyceride to an ester so it's pretty likely your body doesn't look at it the same. Now you can buy Fish oil that is changed back to a trig but it's pretty pricey stuff. Go have a look a Jack's fish oil blog and read the Science article at the end.

    http://www.jackkruse.com/is-fish-oil-good-or-bad/

    The article says in mice fish oil is less effective in lowering blood pressure likely due to the Trig vs Ester issue.

    A few years back I was pumping the fish oil because it was convenient vs sourcing wild AK salmon and after about 6 months I went through a couple week period where my nose would start bleed while out running and another instance riding up a chairlift. Dumped the fish oil soon afterwards and went through the hassle to get Copper River Sockeye from AK. As a former Alaskan these are the best sockeyes out there because the Copper River which flows off the Copper glacier 300 miles inland and runs upto 12mph meaning only the stoutest fish can make the journey up to their breeding grounds.

    Used to be more pricey, but in 2013 I noticed Costco stores across the Pacific Northwest and even Alberta were carrying it. US Price was $9.99/lb while in Canada it was $17.99/lb. Eating a reasonable portion 3x a week for my wife and I works out to about 120 lbs/yr. Not cheap but not ridiculous either.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2013
    Catalin likes this.

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