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Plant based diet

Discussion in 'Beginners Area' started by Joce_, Nov 15, 2019.

  1. Joce_

    Joce_ New Member

    Recently there has been a lot of talk about going plant based to improve health. I watch med game changers and there’s no mention about light and the environment. What’s your view on their presentation that humans aren’t meant to eat meat?
    Martha Ray likes this.
  2. Katie Durham

    Katie Durham New Member

    My view is that it's nonsense. If we were "meant" to eat something, it would have to be eating locally and seasonally. That's the only way we could have evolved. For those of us whose ancestors are from northern latitudes, there isn't much of anything available in the winter except for animal parts. So many important nutrients are either not available in plant form (like B12) or potentially convert hardly at all, like carotenes into Vitamin A or linolenic acid into EPA and DHA. Jack cautions that something closer to veganism would only be possible under the tropical sun, and as the recent decimation of health in the Indian continent has shown (staggering rise in diabetes), you would still have to take precautions like avoiding artificial light.
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  3. ElectricUniverse

    ElectricUniverse New Member

    I like vegetarianism (but not vegan-- likely a very unhealthy dietary choice for most people). I think vegetarian diet is superior in many ways, but most importantly for spiritual growth and development.

    That said, not all people would achieve optimum health on a limited plant-based diet IMO.

    It of course all depends on a person's biochemical individuality and environment they live in. Paleo diet based mainly on red meat, fish, and seafood may be optimal for many, but not me, for instance.

    If you listen to your body carefully it will tell you what it needs.
    Martha Ray likes this.
  4. Joce_

    Joce_ New Member

    what do you say not for you? I have been eating mostly seafood and grass fed meat but my blood work is still not the most ideal. I have been watching and reading up a lot about plant based research and want to find out more. The stories are compelling but seems a bit one sided and hence wanted to hear more views here.

    Their argument about B12 is that B12 from plant or meat is both not sufficient as it actually stems from bacteria from soil/dirt on our food. This has been eliminated with the use of pesticides and the animals we eat also do not get much B12 anymore as well.
    Martha Ray and ElectricUniverse like this.
  5. Lahelada

    Lahelada New Member

    Brent Patrick and Martha Ray like this.
  6. ElectricUniverse

    ElectricUniverse New Member

    A meat-centric diet simply is not my cup of tea. It tends to make me sluggish and lose mental clarity. Your mileage may vary, as usual. One person's food can be another's poison.

    I envy so-called fruitarians (who eat almost exclusively fruits) who claim they are healthy. Fruits (organic) are IMO probably the cleanest food on planet from a metabolic and subtle energy standpoint. Breatharians (if they truly are what they claim to be) are the best hands down (and saves on food bills!).

    However, a fruit diet would only work best in a tropical climate on the equator (as Dr Jack says) in a person that is superbly insulin sensitive and supplements that diet for protein, B12, and other dietary factors missing in such a diet.[/QUOTE]
  7. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK New Member

    I think we're omnivores, but its a spectrum, and the further we go from the equator the more carnivorous we need to be, at least during the winter. But a high fat carnivorous diet when our lifestyles don't include experiencing the cold of winter is a different metabolic ballgame. Then there's the larder and scatter hoarders in nature… So if something local can be stored naturally, or be left and dug up in winter, it could make a difference to where our latitude puts us on the omnivorous spectrum..…

    I've watched Neal Barnard on you tube, and read a couple of studies like this one.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5852765/ A Plant-Based Dietary Intervention Improves Beta-Cell Function and Insulin Resistance in Overweight Adults: A 16-Week Randomized Clinical Trial.

    There's some interesting research from the Gambia about conception and plant chemicals .

    As they age, they are experiencing the same environment in terms of sunlight and nnemf. So it suggests that my fetal landscape's link to the local photosynthetic food web at my conception mattered, but could potentially still be influenced epigenetically now to a certain extent. At my latitude, there's green plants available locally most of the year, and I've got a craving for greens at the moment. If their pro oxidant properties can epigenetically trigger the synthesis of endogenous antioxidants, I am definitely not going to avoid them, particularly with a winter higher fat intake from naturally fatter meat. In summer I leaned more towards plant based, lots of seasonal fruits and veg, with seafood or lean meat.

    The rabbit holes I'm just getting into are haptoglobin and peroxisomes. In a mouse study abstract I've seen, both lard and coconut oil had effects on haptoglobin gene expression in adipose tissues. Lard increased haptoglobin mRNA expression in the retroperitoneal and epidydimal white adipose tissues, whereas chronic treatment with coconut oil increased haptoglobin expression in epidydimal and subcutaneous depots. Then there's peroxisomes (fat connection again) and the relationship between them and oxidative stress and inflammation. A wholefood plant based diet (WFPB) is low fat, but not no fat, but the difference in lard's effects on retroperitoneal fat is interesting … Even more so since intuitively I've not been eating much pork this year, and haven't used lard at all.

    I think there's potential problems with both plant based and carnivore diets. B12 aside, a WFPB isn't the same as one that isn't wholefood in terms of silica. A WFPB diet that contains whole grains, or the skins of things like potatoes etc for example, will provide more in terms of silica, than either a non wholefood plant based diet, or a carnivore diet that emphasises meat and fish flesh, but excludes or limits oysters/mussels and bone broths. Processed plant based, and the flesh of meat and fish contain little silica, and aluminium takes silica out of the body. Aluminium has been implicated in a lot of things including AD, Parkinson's and MS. Silica deficiency may allow aluminium accumulation, or an n=1 high aluminium exposure may leave someone silica deficient. The blue zones of the world seem to have naturally high levels of silica in the diet (usually from a staple grain or yams/sweet potato/potato), and in the water supply, and porridge for breakfast and wholegrains seem to be staples on the WFPB discussions I've seen. A good WFPB diet could be protective against aluminium. Going back to the storing or digging up of roots and tubers in the northern latitudes by our ancestors…. in terms of silica, they could have been a valuable source, but with our current massive increase in aluminium exposure, that might not be enough any more.

    Plant based versus carnivore is a very deep rabbit hole ….. :eek:
  8. Michael CULLEN

    Michael CULLEN New Member

    lol ALL LIES

    Plants are for the animals we eat

    veganism is suicide
    8Phoenix likes this.
  9. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK New Member

    Hunting for our ancestors would have been far more hit and miss and much higher risk. If edible plants aren't available in a particular season at a latitude, carnivorous eating is one thing, for example heavy fat intake being protective of the cold. Eat a carnivorous diet chronically in a warmer latitude or season or without experiencing the cold could be as poor a decision as veganism.

    Plants being for the animals we eat isn't backed up by the dietary data in blue zone longevity areas of the world, or the Gambia study about green plants at conception. There's also the question as to why it made evolutionary sense to develop colour vision, more likely to enable us to be attracted to edible fruits, greens and other vegetables for survival than protection from predation by a carrot …:D
    Bob Stirling and Marko Pollo like this.
  10. Bob Stirling

    Bob Stirling New Member

    There are not many animals at high latitudes so hunting must have been much different than thought of today. Arrow heads made from caribou antlers were barbed outwards so the direction of travel was only inwards. This allowed for tracking of an injured animal. Arrow heads detached from the arrows.

    River valleys are very productive for plants and berries and are located in proximity to spawning salmon. There is an abundance of permafrost and frozen ground (refrigerator / freezer) within 1 meter of the surface. Fish, meat and berries could have been kept cold or frozen for as long as needed.
    Martha Ray, Anne V and Marko Pollo like this.
  11. Martha Ray

    Martha Ray New Member

    I have liked the quote by Michael Pollan, "Eat Food, not too much, mostly plants." Until I noticed that many people who work to 'clean' up their diet are still very prone to plant food problems. There are both pros and cons to plant foods. No one counts on 'veggies' having any cons... put they can have their own vengeance. Lectins, Nightshades, oxalates, FodMaps, nitrates, allergies of all kinds on and on and on. ALL foods have pros and cons and those pros and cons have many variances based on our individuality, genes, light, environment, stress, toxic load etc.
    I have studied the vegan paleo wars for years. I think we must all find what food fuels us best but the work of Dr. Jack Kruse goes beyond the fuel to the engine. Food is important but not as critical as many of us once believed.

    ElectricUniverse likes this.
  12. Martha Ray

    Martha Ray New Member

    Being a woman plus foodie all my life ... I wonder about weight loss diets...
    I was been a 'professional' dieter all my life and was only effective time and results wise twice when within 1 year I lost over 100 lbs.
    First weight loss was with a Houston hospital PSMF aka Protein Sparing Modified Fast program way back in 1988 using real food ( not the shake s) Diet was at almost zero carb. I was supposed to eat only 11 oz per day of cooked ‘fat free’ meat, fish, or poultry daily and on occasion, less often we could eat beef, pork or lamb. Allowed 1 whole egg and 2 eggs whites per week to substitute for 1 oz of meat. They had 10 additional options like 1 c sugar free Jello and sugar free gum, spices, decaf coffee, 1 lemon wedge etc. per day… On the PSMF I was also prescribed K-Dur 20 Potassium 1.5 tablet per day with meal, Os Cal Calcium 500 mg and Salt capsules. I did fine on the potassium and calcium but taking salt capsules cause me to promptly throw up so they let me heavily salt my food.

    I was not so compliant on the lemon, used no Jello, paid no attention to the ‘fat free’. I did not weigh out only 11oz (3 oz for breakfast 4 oz for lunch and 4 oz for dinner). I ate like I was supposed to only I ate all I wanted which after a while was not all that much but a lot more than 11 oz. I also ate as many eggs as I wanted and I do not remember limiting fats. It took about 8 months to lose that 100 lbs. After I lost weight I promptly went into clinical depression perhaps for thinking that weight loss would solve life. Depression lifted with a short round of one of the older antidepressants. I kept weight off for about 3 months but gained every bit back + more over the next two years.

    I tried to duplicate the zero carb plan on my own over the years but had overwhelming failure as I was a bread and sugar and TV addict.

    The second time lost weight was not so pretty. It was in 2009 and was preceded by 2.5 months of cancer treatment that kicked off my first 30 lb loss (not recommended). Surviving that, I went vegetarian with a rather alkaline twist and I lost another 50 lbs effortlessly then another 20 lbs when I went gluten free and vegan. I’m from Texas and I said my whole life I’d never ever be a vegetarian or a vegan. Never say never. Anyway I gained 15+ lbs going paleo and traveling some. Over the last 9 years my weight went up and down 10-15 lbs until finally IF Intermittent Fasting (16/8) put a stop to that. I did IF for over two years until last spring when I began learning about Dr. Jack Kruse ways.

    I have current diet difficulties. Some things are not working for me and former health and diet ideas are haunting me. But one thing I did not and cannot wrap my head around is ….Why did the vegetarian, alkaline diet drop weight off me? At the time I was not even moving very much but I did do an extremely minimal 20 min routine on machines and 10 min on stationery bike 3x a week at a local gym. This is the only time in my life that I did not notice or feel losing weight. 50 lbs vanished effortlessly. Someone politely mentioned to my husband, who is the gym rat in the family, that he needed to buy me some new clothes.

    I want to know why an alkaline diet would cause anyone weight loss? Why did it cause me to lose weight? It does not fit what I think I know about weight loss.
    After 9 years of physical suffering, I never pray now to lose weight like I did most of my life …I pray only to be healthy.
    Veg and caroline like this.
  13. I believe we should eat plants and animals that eat plants and animals from within our local ecosystem. If we are not helping to cycle minerals, nutrients, water, and solar energy in the place we live, we are just riding the tit. The good news is that to pull our weight, we dont need to work like a burro, just live naturally in the sun.
    I agree that we cant be well without sun, first and foremost, and if we are eating in a hospital cafeteria, probably doesnt matter what you order. But if you can restructure your life in such a way that you are producing or procuring food for your family in your local environment,the benefit you get from being in the sun while grounded, renewing your ancient relationships with the soil and its inhabitants, resonating wildly with the bees and plants and birds , and all the while avoiding the things that make us unwell is real and substantial.
  14. Jenny S

    Jenny S Gold

    Why do we have stomach acid if we aren't supposed to eat meat, fish etc then?
    Martha Ray likes this.
  15. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK New Member

    I was interested (from reading about gastrointestinal physiology in relation to sleep), that basal acid secretion in the waking state is minimal in the absence of meal stimulation, but there is an endogenous circadian rhythm of unstimulated basal acid secretion, generally peaking between 10 pm and 2 am.

    In vultures, their stomach acid is so strong that they can eat diseased meat, so they form an important role in the ecosystem, apparently in areas where they've been culled there is a higher incidence of things like rabies. But even herbivores in the wild would be taking in insects, and microbes that could be damaging, but the volume and intensity of the acid would not need to be the same as for a vulture.

    But the endogenous circadian rhythm, at a time we would not normally be eating, points to something other than simple digestion of protein or protection from pathogens in the food consumed. Whether it has a feed forward role linking it to other circadian rhythms, or its something to do with the microbiome, or something else, I'd like to find out. :)
    Sean Waters likes this.
  16. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK New Member

    In one of the Neal Barnard videos he talks about a small trial of women who went on the WFPB diet, they were asked not to exercise so that exercise was not a variable. They all lost weight, no exercising, no calorie counting. If the alkaline diet is largely WFPB, I suspect it is more likely to be the response to something other than the foods alkalinity, because the PH levels of the blood are very tightly regulated.

    It could be what's suddenly not in the diet, for instance increased levels of haptoglobin (Hp) are found in patients with inflammation, tissue injury, trauma, burns, TBI and cancer, and its also related to obesity. If the rat study abstract about lard upregulating haptogblobin mRNA expression in retroperitoneal and epidydimal white adipose tissues translates similarly to humans, then it might be the elimination of animal fats like lard that's a more important factor than the food's alkalinity. I'd be interested to see if the effects are the same for lamb and beef fats, ducks, chicken etc.

    From the very little I've read on Hp genetics, if someone has the HP2-2 variants, they have an increased risk of heart disease, diabetes and diabetes complications, high BP etc and there was a reference to diabetic individuals who are HP2-2 are at 500 per cent greater risk of heart disease compared to HP1-1 individuals. Something that upregulates Hp mRNA like lard might not be a good idea in an already inflammation generating nnemf/blue lit world, particularly for people with the Hp2-2 variants. :confused:
    Martha Ray likes this.
  17. Jenny S

    Jenny S Gold

  18. Jenny S

    Jenny S Gold

    Interesting thanks Sue
  19. ElectricUniverse

    ElectricUniverse New Member

    I like how you mentioned the 'downsides' of a plant-based diet, namely phytochemicals like oxalates and lectins found in popular and very healthy foods like legumes and green leaved vegetables, among many others.

    These plant chemicals are really like poisons and serve as deterrents to animals and insects that would otherwise consume them (remember that plants can't run away and are rooted where they are and have to face all comers).

    But I really think the dangers of these phytochemicals are overblown and most of these plants are safe in moderation. Did I mention moderation?

    Animal flesh/fish are more likely to contain their own poisons like environmental contaminents.

    Choose your food wisely, and above all, enjoy it for sensual pleasure and its nourishment.
    Martha Ray likes this.
  20. Martha Ray

    Martha Ray New Member

    I've never been able to find out if I have too much acid or too little.....6 or so years ago health' gurus told me I had to have too little because I'm older so I promptly took HCL and gave my self an ulcer... right quadrant paint that took me over a year to get Dx... and 2 years to heal...ignorance is painful. Dr. D'Adamo says I'd be lower in acid due to being an A blood type. Who know's if he is correct? I seem to do the same on meats or plants so I eat mostly plants and small amounts of meats. Thinking Bile may be more of a factor for me... I am flying blind much of the time. Do black swans honk to find other black swans. What sound do Black Swans make?

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