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Pg/E ratio?

Discussion in 'Optimal Labs' started by Jude, Aug 26, 2012.

  1. Jude

    Jude Gold

    Can't find the reference range recommended by Dr K

    Anyone able to refer me to source? or just tell me please?

    Thanks
     
  2. He mentioned it in the Hormones webinar. Also he may have mentioned it in the DHEA blog that he posted right after that webinar. IIRC, it should be 100-500 with optimal being 400-500.



    Here is the calculator for computing:http://new.instacalc.com/421



    Good luck! :)
     
  3. KiwiLauren

    KiwiLauren Gold

    Jude, how did your Sydney doc consult go? (Should I book a ticket?!) Lauren (you can PM me if easier).
     
  4. Jude

    Jude Gold

    Thanks Patty Cakes

    (love your name!)

    PC could you clarify for me if that means P=100 and E=500?
     
  5. Jude

    Jude Gold


    Having my follow up tomorrow. Am impressed so far, ordered all the tests for me and seems very interested!
     
  6. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Last year I did little table using that calculator;

    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread44032.html#post652205





    [​IMG]



    Using menstrual cycle chart (below)

    and the two commonly used days of menstrual cycle, (2-4) and (19-21)

    the average, desirable levels are:



    day (2-4)

    Progesterone in ng per ml= 1.5

    Estradiol in pg per ml = 35

    P/E=37



    day (19-21)

    Progesterone in ng per ml= 14

    Estradiol in pg per ml = 130

    P/E=93



    For men

    Progesterone in ng per ml= 1.4

    Estradiol in pg per ml = 20

    P/E=60.6

    =============================================================



    Those PE numbers are interesting.

    They do not look like dr K's (400-500)

    or

    what I have previously seen at dr Lam's (drlam.com) web page (200-300)



    It would be nice to reconcile this.



    [​IMG]
     

  7. It means the ratio of Pg/E2=400-500. If you plug the numbers you get from your blood test results into the calculator it will give you your ratio. That number should be between 400-500. Good luck! I'm still working on getting above 100!!! :eek:
     
  8. Jude

    Jude Gold

    Thanks muchly Patty Cakes.
     
  9. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    JanSz yours are blood numbers the ones I ref were saliva.....that is the difference.
     
  10. JanSz

    JanSz Gold




    Rhythm Plus is saliva test

    Sample report is here:

    http://www.gdx.net/core/sample-reports/Rhythm-Plus-Sample-Report.pdf

    On a chart they wrote (using molar units):



    P/E2 Ratio

    Follicular(23-159) (first half of cycle)

    Luteal(25-141) (second half of cycle)

    Menapausal(33-116)



    When I read P & E2 numbers from chart, for days (2-4) & (19-21), in the mid of (1 SD) range

    the ones I marked with magenta short lines, I get:



    Day (2-4)

    Estradiol= 4.5 pmol/L

    Progesterone= 325 pmol/L

    P/E2= 325/4.5= 72



    Day (19-21)

    Estradiol=6.25 pmol/L

    Progesterone= 650 pmol/L

    P/E2= 104

    ------------------------

    For men, good (serum) values are:

    Progesterone=1.4 ng/mL=1400pg/mL

    Estradiol=20 pg/mL

    P/E2=61 (molar ratio), weight ratio would be 1400/20=70 (note, almost the same as women's at the start of the cycle)

    ------------------------

    http://www.drlam.com/articles/estrogen_dominance.asp?page=1

    For optimum health, the progesterone to estrogen ratio should be

    between 200 and 300
    to 1.



    note:

    this statement could use discussion/clarification.

    ----------------------



    At the moment, I am not able to find good reference, but from memory,

    when we are speaking of P/E ratio,

    it is really about molar ratio,

    not

    weight ratio.



    So any input in weight units (say pg/mL) must be converted to molar units (pmol/L)



    Calculator is handy when using results from serum, which are commonly in weight units.

    http://new.instacalc.com/421



    -------------------

    [​IMG]





    .
     
  11. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    ZRTlabs.com saliva test does this for the PG/E2 off the bat and it makes it quite easy for patients at home to understand.....most others do not do this and the patient needs to calculate it.
     
  12. JanSz

    JanSz Gold


    I am not familiar with zrt tests.



    What P/E ratio do they recommend as optimal?



    ---------

    I have seen

    optimal being 400-500 (post #2 this thread)

    200-300 (drlam.com)



    Genova Diagnostic's tests are saliva tests, same as ZRT

    they give at the max (2SD) PG/E2~159, but really it is more like 72 and latter 104



    There is a 200% - 500% numbers mismatch.

    It would be nice to clarify what it is all about.





    ...............



    Off hand it smells fishy to me.

    Similarly as problems with Fish & Krill oils.





    Some important information is omitted, on a purpose or by other reasons.





    .....
     
  13. zoebarry@yahoo.com

    zoebarry@yahoo.com New Member


    I just sent my 24hr urine test to Genova Diagnostics. My doctor requested it, and I am having a full hormone panel done. Is the urine test for hormones suppose to be more accurate than blood tests? I've been having blood tests done for the past year and had my dosage adjusted according to those results. I'm anxious to see my results.



    If I plug in my blood test Pg/E amounts, my ration is low....only 82....yuck.....I've got some work to do, but my doctor seems to think my levels are okay.....I just last month had to ask to be put on Biest....
     
  14. JanSz

    JanSz Gold


    What test have you done?

    Post results on separate thread.

    Scan all tests results then post them.

    Do not re-write, to many opportunities for trouble.



    P/E calculator is used (only) when test results are in

    Progesterone in ng per ml

    Estradiol in pg per ml



    If your results are in other units, you must first convert them.



    As far as I can tell, the P/E ratio is meant to be ratio of molar units.

    Calculator converts weight based units into molar and then takes ratio.





    .........



    Do not panic, look at my posts above.

    Depending on time in the monthly cycle you should be (72-102) to be in vicinity of ideal numbers, but there is (significant) room for differences.



    Next, important consideration would be the absolute numbers for progesterone, E2 and Total E.







    ////////////////////////////

    Complete Hormones™

    http://www.gdx.net/product/10049

    Sample report

    http://www.gdx.net/core/sample-reports/Complete-Hormones-FMV-Sample-Report.pdf



    In results I do not see P/E2 on this 24hr urine test.

    Value of progesterone can only be estimated using Pregnanediol.

    It would be a stretch to use them to figure P/E ratio.



    Note;

    this is normal, urine tests do no figure direct progesterone levels.





    /



    .



    Depending how deep doodoo you are in,

    you may want to consider

    24 Hour Urine Hormone Testing

    http://meridianvalleylab.com/urine-hormone-testing



    probably the best test on the market available to public.





    ..........



    [​IMG]
     
  15. Lyndra

    Lyndra Gold

    I've done a couple of Genova 24-hour tests. A big downside is that I can't figure out my Pg/E2 ratio. They return E results in mcg/g and Prenanediol (progesterone is not measured) in micromol/24 hour.
     
  16. JanSz

    JanSz Gold


    24hr urine test is a very good and overall liked by doctors in this business.

    Likely it is excellent test to evaluate "virgin" patient. Someone who does not use many supplements or medicines.



    Genova have a nice graphics in report.

    Meridian Valley is likely the best.



    I have a problem (created by me).

    Most doctors give cursory hand waving to pregnenolone, those who want to use it (have on a list of stuff used in treatment), use pregnenolone in topical creams.



    Since I give a preference to well-being of my own body, and am able to do as I figure logical (and as I please),

    I have found that the best pregnenolone creams based on best carriers, costing top $$, are useless.

    And I have found that only one pregnenolone tablets, work for me (Nutricology MLM).

    Problem is,

    use of those tablets (completely) messes up urine test

    (likely because there is a boat load of unused pregnenolone and its metabolites on a way out).



    So, I do not use urine tests.

    I use blood testing and once a blue moon, saliva for cortisol.



    //////////////////



    I am not a doctor.





    //
     
  17. Lyndra

    Lyndra Gold

    Thanks, that all makes sense. On the 24-hour urine test, my pregnanadiol reading was way high (27.28, RR 0.3-4.20) while pregnanatriol is low (0.68, RR 0.6-2.5). At the time of the test, I was taking both oral pregnenolone and progesterone. I'm working with a new doctor and will ask about blood testing (post-menopausal, so timing isn't an issue).
     
  18. JanSz

    JanSz Gold


    Probably can't do all this, try at least 1-10

    The test #s and CPT

    are per LabCorp









    1 ;----------- Pregnenolone, Mass Spectrometry-Test Number: 140707 CPT Code: 84140

    2 ;----------- Progesterone- Test Number: 004317 CPT Code: 84144

    3 ;----------- Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) Sulfate- Test Number: 004020 CPT Code: 82627

    4 ;----------- Testosterone, Free and Weakly Bound Test Number: 143255 CPT Code: 84402; 84403

    5 ;----------- Estradiol, Sensitive- Test Number: 140244 CPT Code: 82670

    6 ;----------- Estrone, Serum-Test Number: 004564 CPT Code: 82679

    7 ;----------- Total Testosterone- Test Number: 004226 CPT Code: 84403

    8 ;----------- Sex Hormone Binding Globulin Test Number: 082016 CPT Code: 84270

    9 ;----------- Dihydrotestosterone (DHT)- Test Number: 500142 CPT Code: 82651

    10 ;----------- Cortisol, AM-Test Number: 104018 CPT Code: 82533

    11 ;-----------

    12 ;----------- Thyroxine (T4)- Test Number: 001149 CPT Code: 84436

    13 ;----------- Thyroxine (T4), Free, Direct, Serum-Test Number: 001974 CPT Code: 84439

    14 ;----------- Triiodothyronine (T3)- Test Number: 002188 CPT Code: 84480

    15 ;----------- Triiodothyronine (T3), Free, Serum- Test Number: 010389 CPT Code: 84481

    16 ;----------- Reverse T3-Test Number: 070104 CPT Code: 84482

    17 ;----------- Thyroid-stimulating Hormone (TSH)- Test Number: 004259 CPT Code: 84443

    18 ;-----------

    19 ;----------- Metabolic Panel (14), Comprehensive- Test Number: 322000 CPT Code: 80053

    20 ;----------- Complete Blood Count (CBC) With Differential- Test Number: 005009 CPT Code: 85025

    21 ;-----------

    22 ;----------- Homocysteine, Plasma-Test Number: 706994 CPT Code: 83090

    23 ;----------- Hemoglobin (Hb) A1c- Test Number: 001453 CPT Code: 83036

    24 ;----------- Insulin, Free and Total, Serum-Test Number: 140350 CPT Code: 83525; 83527

    25 ;-----------

    26 ;----------- Insulin-like Growth Factor 1 (IGF-1)- Test Number: 010363 CPT Code: 84305

    27 ;-----------

    28 ;----------- Diagnostic codes:

    29 ;----------- 244.90 Hypothyroidism-----780.79 Fatigue-----272.00 Disorder of lipid metabolism

    30 ;----------- 255.50 Adrenal Hypo function-----799.81 Decreased Libido----

    31 ;----------- 257.00 Testicular Dysfunction----- 256.10 Hypogonadism-----

    32 ;----------- 250.00 Diabetes mellitus-----300.00 Anxiety unspecific-----

    33 ;----------- 270.00 Disorder of Amino Acid Transport-----253.30 Growth hormone deficiency
     
    Bob Stirling likes this.

  19. Ok, I used your calc - and got this. . . .seems too far off?!





    5.7135570921
     
  20. Shijin13

    Shijin13 Guest


    Highly possible mine last October was 8.
     

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