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Optimal Treatment of Hashimoto's Disease - Searching for the unifying theory! Part 2

Discussion in 'Optimal Labs' started by Arsaneus, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. Arsaneus

    Arsaneus New Member

    It didn't work. Although everything was as closely to the normal human physiology as possible, the body still produced way too much rT3 in all three of us. Our fT3/rT3 ratios were in between 7.8 * 10[SUP]-3[/SUP] and 12.0 * 10[SUP]-3[/SUP]. (what would usually be called a ratio of "7.8" or "12.0" ... like I said, whoever invented this ratio fucked up with the units ;) )

    Why doesn't the body normalize when everything is approximately as it were before, when one was healthy?
    Our hypothesis is, that the body treats it's thyroid cells like they were a disease. A bacteria that wants to infect the body. This is what an autoimmune disease is all about, isn't it? The body confusing its own cells for an enemy, and therefore attacking them via the immune system?

    It is scientifically proven that the body raises rT3 levels while undergoing an infection. So, our idea is, what if the body reacts the same way when undergoing Hashimoto's Thyreoiditis? It cannot distinguish between a bacterial infection and an autoimmune disease, from the body's perspective it's both the same. Therefore one would assume, that it reacts to Hashimoto's disease the same way like it would react to any bacterial infection: by producing way more rT3 than usual, to shut down the body's metabolism until the "infection" is dealt with. Which never happens, since thyroid tissue has regenerative abilities and it takes anything from 5 years to a whole lifetime to get rid of the thyroid completely. Therefore, rT3 levels stay up all the time.

    This could even explain why people report having hypothyroid symptoms, despite having a normal TSH (by the way - normal seems to be 0.3 to 2.1, as Völzke et al. discovered for Germany in 2005: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15785248, the U.S. upper limit of somewhat like 5.0 to sometimes 10.0 is a joke if you ask me). It's possible that they start producing massive amounts of rT3 as an reaction to the beginning autoimmune process, way before any substantial thyroid damage occures. We've had reports like this serveral times from people who got lucky being diagnosed in the early stages of Hashimoto. They had positive antibody lab results, but their TSH often was about 0.5 to 1.5, and despite being healthy otherwise, they already suffered from hypothyroid symptoms way to strong in relation to the little thyroid damage they had.

    So, apparently the only way to ever normalize the rT3 production was by killing off the T4 needed for it's production. Which would have several side effects because the body was never designed to operate in such a manner.

    I was about to give up when I stumbled upon Shijin13 in this forum.

    The case of Shijin13
    As we all know, taking the "T3 only" method is an effective mean of reducing rT3 and therefore normalizing the fT3/rT3 ratio, leading to intracellular euthyreosis in all of the bodys cells. But it has some serious flaws as well:

    • It produces huge peaks in the fT3 (which the body was never designed to handle)
    • It suppresses the TSH (which we don't know what the long term effects will be, given extrathyreoidal TSH receptors been discovered)
    • It reduces the fT4 to a point way below the normal range (which robbes the body of any means of producing new T3 in between two dosages one takes)
    In addition, many patients suppress their TSH, either by using high to abnormal (sorry) T3 amounts, or by using a lot of NDT. Which makes it impossible to determine how their bodys would have reacted if the TSH wouldn't have been suppressed.

    Shijin13 instead took 2 Grains of NDT, causing a non-supressed TSH with almost normal lab results. Okay, the fT3/rT3 ratio was way higher than any healthy person would have had in their whole lifetime, but it seemed to work anyway.


    Shijin13 took 1 1/2 grains in the morning and an additional 1/2 grain in the afternoon. Her lab results were exactly:

    TSH: 0.470 (0.450-4.500) µIU/mL
    fT3: 6.2 (2.0-4.4) pg/mL
    fT4: 1.09 (0.82-1.77) ng/dL
    rT3: 11.9 (9.2-24.1) ng/dL

    fT3/fT4: 0.68 (0.22-0.50 as determined in Gullo et al., 2011)
    fT3/rT3: 52.1 (normal: approx. 22 * 10[SUP]-3[/SUP] as can be determined based on the healthy control group of Chomard et al, 1985)

    She said that she felt very well on that dosage.

    Now, this proves that the fT3/rT3 ratio can be normalized (or, to be strict, raised above normal) without having to suppress the TSH or to lower the fT4 under the reference range. Even without having to set aside T4 in the substitution.

    If we can replicate this and fine-tune it, we may be able to develop a method of substituting thyroid hormones and making all body cells euthyroid without losing TSH, and without losing the bodys ability to generate new T3 by conversion. In combination with what I've described as my own recently used method above, we could eliminate fT3 peaks altogether by splitting the dosage even further than Shijin13 does. Altogether, this would result in a normal healthy state of being, like we felt before we got the autoimmune disease.

    The trick may be to lower the supply of T4 just enough to force the body to lower its rT3 production (despite it wants to, because of the "infection" it fights), but not enough to lose the ability to generate new T3 via conversion from T4, which helps stabilizing fT3 levels.

    My questions to Shijin13 and all the others who may be interested in pursuing this:

    Shijin13, what thyroid disease do you have exactly? Do you have a thyroid left at all? Do you have new lab results, and how do you feel?

    Has anyone in this community ever archieved a normal fT3/rT3 ratio without having to go "T3 only", and without having to suppress the TSH? Or known anybody who did this?

    With best regards & greetings from Germany,

    @MODERATORS: PLEASE COMBINE THIS WITH THE FIRST PART OF MY THREAD, THANK YOU! (I didn't know it had to be approved by moderators before being posted)
  2. Shijin13

    Shijin13 Guest


    I'm Hypothyroid - with possible Hashis - we're re-checking. all I did was test regularly every 6-8wks, and adjust medication as necessary. This summer/fall I went hyper, so we've backed off dosages and I'm retesting next week and we're looking at TPO & TAB as well....
  3. Arsaneus

    Arsaneus New Member

    Hello Shijin13,

    thank you very much for answering. Do you've got any new lab results since the thread I mentioned? (April 2013)
  4. MsYo

    MsYo Silver

    I'm also hypothyroid and possible hashis. I've been on 2 grains of Nature Throid since August and I recently upped my dose to 2 grains in the afternoon (ROGUE). I visit my doctor for my followup lab discussion tomorrow. My labs are in the optimal lab thread. I also have low sodium/potassium ratio as well as adrenal fatigue. Maybe my labs will be useful for reference.
  5. Shijin13

    Shijin13 Guest

    YEs I do. I have to update them...
  6. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    I am 73yo man.
    It is getting close to a three years doing this preg/DHEA program.
    Use large amounts of pregnenolone micronized Lipid Matrix, Nutricology
    enough to keep my Cortisol,serum(7:30AM) at top level or slightly over. (Aim at free,serum cortisol in upper range).
    Now preg 450mg/day, at the max 900mg/day for about 9 months.
    Eat enough DHEA to keep DHEAs~500 μg/dL, now 200mg/day, at the max 400mg/day
    Manage circadian rhythm per dr Kruse (plus Phosphatidyl choline, Serine, GPC and other. )
    Use 50mg/day Lugol's + other
    Use 2 grains/day natural thyroid products, divided wakeup & noon

    ---------------		10/29/2013	Goal		
    TSH------------------		1.3	(0.4-2)		
    T4------------------		4.3	(4.5-12)ug/dL		
    FT4------------------		0.99	(0.82-1.77)ng/dL		
    T3------------------		79	(71-180)ng/dL		
    FT3------------------		3.0	(2.0-4.4)pg/mL		
    RT3------------------		6.0	(9.2-24.1)ng/dL		
    Thyroid Peroxidase (TPO) Ab	<6	(0-34)IU/mL		
    Antithyroglobulin Ab		<20	(0-40)IU/mL		
    FT3/RT3= 50.0 A healthy FT3/RT3 ratio is 20 or greater.
    T3/RT3= 13.17 A healthy T3/RT3 ratio is 10 or greater.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2013
  7. Dali Dula

    Dali Dula Moderator

    Hey JanSz, How has your TPO been in the past?
  8. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Do not have too many datapoints on that.

    -----------------------		7/21/2012
    Thyroid Peroxidase (TPO) Ab		7
    Antithyroglobulin Ab		<20
  9. Arsaneus

    Arsaneus New Member

    That would be nice! Looking forward to reading them, and your new ones! :)

    Very interesting indeed.

    You're the first (!) person I know of, that has every thyroid lab test in the reference range... TSH + fT3 + fT4 + rT3 + ratio fT3/fT4 + ratio fT3/rT3.

    How did you feel with the 2 grains? (lab results from 08/17/2013)

    Thanks for your lab results and your story!
  10. Arsaneus

    Arsaneus New Member

    Shijin13, MsYo, did you read that?
  11. MsYo

    MsYo Silver

    I felt decent. No hyper symptoms. When I saw my doc on Thursday he only upped me 1/2 grain until my next appointment. I'm doing a nutritional balancing program that adds natural thyroid support so I didn't push the 2grain afternoon dosing. My body temp is still lower than when I was at 4 grains (97.4) compared to (96.5). I'm doing the leptin reset (again)and gluten free without cheats this time.
  12. Arsaneus

    Arsaneus New Member

    Thanks for answering. Sounds good, maybe your problems are caused by the short half-life of T3? A bunch of people who tried it felt a lot better when taking T3 four times daily than two times. T3's half-life is only about 17 hours, meaning it decays rapidly in the bloodstream. Just a thought.

    Gluten free diet is a good idea, I'm doing that myself since I found out that I'm gluten sensitive. There are rumors about a gluten-thyroid-connection. Some scientists believe that gluten is even a trigger for autoimmune diseases in general. I've got an article in German on that:


    Although not proven for certain, a gluten free diet may help not only improving certain symptoms, but preventing the development of further autoimmune diseases as well.
  13. Arsaneus

    Arsaneus New Member

    MsYo, you definetly took 2 Grains total per day when you made your lab results from 08/17/2013. Correct?
  14. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    T3 decays more rapidly when one is LR and has inflammation and a low zeta potential in their blood. The zeta potential is an overall charge state of plasma. The more positive the charge the more inflamed you are and the less Co Q10 is in your plasma. Macroscopically this means you lose laminar flow in vessels. And the normal quiet space of fluid adjacent to the arterial wall become quite turbulent to cause the beginnings of arterial wall oxidation and the cascade that goes with it.
  15. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    ^^^^^ This is why T3 meds or replacements are epic failures in the face of inflammation. You must fix that first before your meds really works as designed. This is why those who are LR need massive doses of meds out of the "medical model"
  16. MsYo

    MsYo Silver

    Yes, I upped the dose to 2 grains at that time. I have another set of labs after that to post from 11/21 while still on 2 grains.
  17. MsYo

    MsYo Silver

    I suspected my inflammation was an issue. I'm now 1 week into leptin reset with good results. My hscrp dropped from .1.1 to .6 with boulouke in 6 weeks. I should see even better results with reset and other adjustments I'm making.
  18. Arsaneus

    Arsaneus New Member

    I think I'm really really blind, tried 30 min. but still couldn't find it :D

    @Jack Kruse: There is much rumor about inflammation (of any kind) causing high rT3 levels. There is even a lot of scientific research confirming these rumors. But still, isn't it possible that the body generates rT3 as a reaction to the autoimmune disease (Hashimoto's disease)? Because if this is true, no ordinary therapy would ever solve this problem. One would have to starve the body of T4 (totally or at least to a certain degree) to get rid of the rT3 overproduction...
  19. MsYo

    MsYo Silver


    Here are the most recent labs.
  20. MsYo

    MsYo Silver

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