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Naviaux: Mitochondrial Etiology of Neolithic Disease

Discussion in 'Mitochondrial Rx' started by Lucien Burke, Feb 10, 2018.

  1. MITOCHONDRIA: I know there are a lot of Doug Wallace fanboys and fangirls in this group, but I've been doing some research into different mitochondrial medicine experts and I've found there are various schools of thought when it comes to the place of mitochondria in neolithic disease. For example, Bob Naviaux from UCSD has cut his teeth on the "cell danger response" orchestrated by mitochondria that has nothing to with the geometry of the respiratory proteins or proliferation of structurally deformed mitochondria as described by Wallace (heteroplasmy). In Naviaux's "cell danger response" model mitochondrial colonies in tissues use a complex array of signaling pathways (extracellular ATP) to consciously shut down energy production in the face of environmental threats. Since these threats are ubiquitous in the modern world, Naviaux believes this manual and orchestrated downregulation of respiration is at the heart of modern chronic disease. This is very different than Wallaces mutant mitochondria theory. In Naviaux's model, mitochondria are not structurally inefficient but purposely redirecting their function away from energy production in an attempt to defend the cell. Has anyone considered these different viewpoints? Thoughts?

    seanb4, Nicolaj Sølvsten and freesia like this.
  2. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    I found listening to him difficult because he is a poor public speaker. He seems to need his slides a lot and does not have a command of the science like Wallace does. It is an incomplete view of mitochondrial function compared to Wallace, in my opinion. For example, ANT's gene frequencies have changed and are well documented in the literature. When he mentioned the oxygen gradients and talked only bio-chemistry and never mentioned the paramagnetic effect of oxygen it showed what he was really missing......the bio-physics of mitochondrial function. I like that he at least is focusing in on mitochondria so this good......not one mention of protons during his electron story. He also has little funding and had to put close to a million bucks of his own money into his lab to keep it afloat. He was part of the suramin autism study that went nowhere.
    Suramin inhibit extracellular ATP signaling. Suramin has many actions in cells and his pilot study of ten had few controls. One of its best-studied actions is as an inhibitor of purinergic signaling found in DNA bases. He is very bio-chemically based in his approach because he is looking for a drug to induce a change to support his thesis. Wrong idea in my view.

    His research was not about suramin, it was about his mechanism as a cause of autism. https://spectrumnews.org/news/doubt-greets-reports-suramins-promise-treating-autism/
  3. Yeah I was intrigued when he talked about how mitochondria are canaries in the coal mine for environmental change and how autism and other complex diseases are a result of modifiable environmental risk factors. He and Wallace have collaborated: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931549/. Naviaux also discusses mtDNA and heteroplasmy in this talk: .

    Assuming that the positive results of the suramin pilot study validate the cell danger response (extracellular ATP) model... "Secondary outcomes also showed improvements in language, social interaction, and decreased restricted or repetitive behaviors"(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28695149). I'm curious how Wallace's heteroplasmy and Naviaux's Cell Danger Response integrate to create disease.

    In one lecture, Naviaux mentions that stressed cells "glow" with extracellular ATP to signal danger to neighboring cells. What are the biophysics of ATP that contribute to it's role in cellular danger responses (does it glow) and how does purinergic signaling relate to heteroplasmy and biophysics?

    As you mentioned in your Facebook post Dr. Kruse, "The molecular formula of suramin is C51H40N6O23S6. It is a symmetric molecule in the center of which lies a urea (NH–CO–NH) functional group. Suramin contains has many photon traps in its chemical structure. This means more light can be delivered to the cell when suramin is being injected into the blood plasma."


    So do Autistic children have a high heteroplasmy percentage of mutant mitochondria and low energy state which leads to a triggered cell danger response which makes them leak light in the form of extracellular ATP? If so, perhaps suramin allows them to retain this light...
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  4. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    A stress response makes cells glow because they release more ELF-UV light. Roeland van Wijk 101.
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  5. Yeah... the field of mitochondrial medicine as a whole will make great strides when they move away from biochemistry to biophysics.
  6. I noticed both Naviaux and Wallace talk chemical pollution and soil ecology.... I wonder where this field would go if they started studying electromagnetism....
  7. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    LIFE AS A DISSIPATIVE STRUCTURE. This would never be derived from Naviaux.

    Pebbles likes this.
  8. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

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  9. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

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  10. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Lane is missing the aspect of sunlight on water........as you can hear from the second question at the end of his talk.
    Lahelada likes this.
  11. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Why has Nick Lane missed the boat? His thesis never accounted for isotopes in water from the Hadean epoch.

    Several scientists at this conference Nick spoke at this conference new about zircons and oxygen isotopes. Nick did not listen well. Early Hadean water favored oxygen 18 which is the heavier isotope of oxygen. Nick never put together the following question: If early water liked 018 and we know o18 favors deuterium over H+, why do chloroplast and mitochondria both favor H+ over deuterium for energy production in organelles that come from endosymbiosis?

    The scientists analyzed a rock from Western Australia that was more than three billion years old with UCLA’s high-resolution ion microprobe—an instrument that enables scientists to date and learns the exact composition of samples—which, at the time, Dr. Mojzsis described as the “world’s best instrument” for this research. The microprobe shoots a beam of ions—charged atoms—at a sample, releasing from the sample its own ions that are analyzed in a mass spectrometer for isotopic fractions. Scientists can aim the beam of ions at specific microscopic areas of a sample and analyze them without destroying the object. (I believe this mechanism is a big deal in us. Neutrino's can come from the sun to deplete us of deuterium in way we are yet to realize)

    Scientists learned that while the rock was deposited about three billion years ago, it contains ancient mineral grains — zircons—that were much older; two of the zircons were 4.3 billion years old, and nearly a dozen others were older than four billion years. The Earth is 4.5 billion years old so these rocks have atomic information of the crust of the Earth way back when because zircons can only form in a certain way. In addition, the researchers learned that the zircons contained a unique and revealing ratio of oxygen isotopes.

    They were stunned to discover a very distinctive oxygen isotopic signature in this rock—a rock that significantly predates the Earth’s oxygen atmosphere—which told us that it interacted with cold water at temperatures appropriate to the Earth’s surface. This had major implications. Many scientists did not think rocks older than two billion years could provide this information at the time. Was there liquid water at the Earth’s surface 4.3 billion years ago? We have not had any way to answer that question before until these measurements, which suggest that the answer is yes. Here is where Nick went off the rails. HE never thought to ask if zircons show O18 and deuterium were in cold crustal water why did life decided to use water with O16 and H+ as its fuel for life's battery?????

    The telltale sign is the ratio of the very common 16O to the much rarer and heavier 18O. The ratio of these isotopes reveals whether water has interacted with a rock. If a rock has been to the Earth’s surface and interacted with water, it will be significantly ’heavier’ and more enriched in 18O, which is precisely what the data have found in these ancient zircons.

    Zircons are heavy, durable minerals related to the synthetic cubic zirconium used for imitation diamonds and costume jewelry. The zircons studied in the rock are about twice the thickness of a human hair. These ancient zircons tell us that they melted from an earlier rock that had been to the Earth’s surface and interacted with cold water.

    Why is this big mitochondriac news?

    There is no other known way to account for that heavy oxygen, as far as science knows right now.

    Nick Lane forgot this.
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  12. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    I did not miss it..........because deuterium does not fit in the ATPase that is the basis of all proton chemiosmosis.

    Deuterium and H+ have different quantum spin states.

    What does this mean to a mitochondriac?

    They give a different topology and this means there is a different trajectory or probability of states of matter or reality in life.
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  13. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Now.......try to go to the last chapter of my book and think about the Yucatan if you've been there. There is a lot of calcium carbonate and sulfur in the crust. Why should that crustal element get you thinking about mammals and the rebound of life after devastation? Why were eutherian mammals selected by the asteroid impact? Could it have been related to some quantum chemistry with UV light and sulfur?

    What is that link?

    An impact of a large asteroid SPECIFICALLY in the Yucatan as we knew its crust to be 65 million years ago, would abruptly change the environment of the Earth. For example, the Chicxulub impact event that occurred near the Cretaceous-Tertiary boundary might lead to the mass extinction of 76% of life [Alvarez et al., 1980]. One of the significant phenomena that would arise as a result of such an impact is the massive production of sulfate aerosols in the stratosphere. It has suggested that a large amount of sulfuric gases would be injected into the middle and upper stratosphere by plumes following the explosion after the impact [Pierazzo et al., 1998]. The ejected sulfurous acid gases would eventually be oxidized by sunlight at this latitude on the planet and converted to sulfate aerosols in the stratosphere [Turco et al., 1979]. The amount of aerosol may be extremely higher than that in an ordinary atmosphere. [Pierazzo et al., 2003].

    What is the primary effect of sulfate in our atmospheric surface???? A primary effect of the sulfate aerosols in the stratosphere is the reduction of solar energy reaching the Earth's surface, especially in the ultra-violet (UV) and visible region. Could this be where modern man got his 'idea' to change modern Earth with chemical sprays???

    A large amount of impact-induced aerosols is expected to cause a tremendous temperature drop in the troposphere and to inhibit photosynthesis by plants. Funny thing is that most plants do not use UVA or UVB radiation for photosynthesis. They use blue-green light and red light to do that job. In addition, an impact is expected to generate a large amount of nitrogen oxide, which depletes the ozone layer. WE still see remnants of this effect in the Southern donut hole.

    Toon et al. [1997] suggested that the Chicxulub impact might have caused a reduction in the amount of ozone by about 50%. Sulfate aerosols also aid in accelerating the conversion of nitrogen oxides to nitric acid. This effect activates chlorine and results in destroying the ozone if chlorine is present in sufficient amounts in the stratosphere [Hanson et al., 1994; Tie and Brasseur, 1995].

    For the Chicxulub impact event, the amounts of Cl injected by the impact was estimated to be enough for destroying all the stratospheric ozone [Kring, 1999].
    What does ozone interact with? UVB light. This is how oxygen is created high up in the atmosphere.

    Several numerical experiments and observations have also provided pieces of evidence of the increases in reactive chlorine and the ozone depletion after the eruption of Pinatubo in 1991 [e.g., Tie et al., 1994; Solomon et al., 1996; Randel et al., 1995].

    Ozone depletion in the stratosphere leads to an increase in UV radiation on the surface of the Earth. This would have harmed plants, and bacteria but been a springboard for those things with mitochondria as an energy source. Could the mechanism of destruction carried with the seed of regeneration???

    Because of how mammalian cytochromes are built to be responsive to UVA light at cytochrome 1 be an answer why eutherian mammals were given a boost? NADH is a fluorophore-protein. It responds best to 340 nm excited electrons.

    Many scientists in the dominant paradigm are schooled to believe that UV-B wavelengths (28o–315 nm), are always harmful radiation for animals and plants. Might this be a false truth on what we now know about radiation hormesis??? Mammals are more sensitive to the amount of ozone rather than the UV-A (315–400 nm) radiation, which is less dangerous and has huge effects on nitric oxide liberation and sulfur chemistry in the skin.

    However, we need to realize that an increase in UV radiation by ozone depletion opposes the reduction in UV radiation by aerosols. We know the result was a death blow to the dinosaurs and birth to the mammals. We also know, sulfate aerosols can enhance the absorption of UV radiation in the stratosphere but the ozone depletion may reduce the absorption. These effects also counteract each other. Therefore, it is not clear how the sulfate aerosols effect UV radiation under the conditions of ozone depletion.

    In case of the Chicxulub impact in the Yucatan, an increase in the UV-B radiation would have occurred several years after the impact and likely had a strong effect in life bouncing back quickly in eutherian mammals and it contributed to the rebound of life of mass extinction at the end of the Cretaceous period. This benefit may be continuing to this very days in ways few can fathom because of the quantum effects that still scar the Earth in this region.
    JanSz, Lahelada and brandie like this.
  14. Matty_M

    Matty_M Purple Angel Club

    I was just out to dinner with my mom's friend, a neurologist who works with Dr. Wallace and connected us a while ago.

    He said that Doug is like a mad scientist walking around and that he has so much going on in his head all the time

    He also said that Doug has really been focusing in on autism a lot recently.

    Sidenote: The neurologist has a patient and gave his mitochondria for Dr. Wallace to sample. Doug found that his mitochondria are unable to translocate ATP out, but the kid is alive and OK. They're not sure how he's alive..

    He also said that Doug tries to go into the clinic to see patients but they absolutely won't let him because he's not an MD, but he understands their cases better than ANY of the MD's at CHOP and Penn. So, they've begun a wednesday powow where Dr. Wallace gets together with them all and shares info.

    Still working on getting in his lab. He gave me an open offer, but given how busy he is, I have to be persistent :)
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  15. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

  16. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Look at the slide Jansz posted above and ask yourself these questions: Is a state of exotic matter of the living state due to its unique topology where it becomes the key physical determinant that determines the arrow of time? Is this why nature seems to favor certain topologic insulators?

    When I gave the webinar 4 years ago on this topic I said that soon science would prove what goes on the surfaces of things may turn out to be more important than what goes on beneath the surface. I made the comment because I felt photo-chemistry at surfaces was more important than solution bio-chemistry in cells below to dissipate entropy to build order at deeper layers in tissues. Topologic insulators in physics concern itself with the very bizarre properties of matter in extreme states, including superconductors, superfluids and thin magnetic films.

    This is “what” the physics of organisms made from to create life. Life is an exotic state of matter that allows energy to be pumped in used in cyclically fashion and export entropy back to the environment by heat loss.

    I believe that biophysicists will soon discover that TI’s are buried inside of every base pair of DNA and they act like a superconducting magnetic film for life. It is on this thin film of nucleic acids that life becomes a perpetual motion machine of subatomic particles that allows life to continue unimpeded, as changes occur in energy in the environment. In fact, we may even find out space is flat and not a multiverse because of topology. This makes evolution rapid and complex and not gradual as biology has come to accept. Topological insulators conduct electricity on their surfaces but do not conduct the current deep inside their cores. This helps explain why DNA’s surface is highly coiled and coated with histones, chromatin, and methyl groups in its “quiet state” and how it can receive photo-electric instructions to run the epigenetic programming it contains deep within. What happens on its surface can awaken the code of life buried deep below its double helix to change is Dirac fermions. (pic below)


    The second law of thermodynamics, also known as the law of increasing entropy or the “arrow of time.” Hot things cool down, gas diffuses through air, eggs scramble but never spontaneously unscramble; in short, energy tends to disperse or spread out as time progresses. Life seems to contravene the second law by dissipating energy back to the environment while absorbing energy from the environment to use to build a state of matter that dumps entropy back to the environment. From this perspective, life seems inevitable. Entropy is a measure of this tendency, quantifying how dispersed the energy is among the particles in a system, and how diffuse those particles are throughout space. Probability mathematics of quantum mechanics underpins nature. Entropy increases as a simple matter of probability: There are more ways for energy to be ‘spread out’ than for it to be concentrated to avoid chaos.

    Within the heavily condensed and coiled state, DNA structure tightly holds atoms, electrons, protons, and photons in one “spin state”. The quantum spin state seems to be VERY important to living systems ability to control entropy. This means the spin state or electrons and protons is something we all need to pay attention to understand how life does what it can. When DNA is uncoiled by electromagnetic signals from the environment or from our mitochondria on surfaces, light can be liberated from the piezoelectric and magnetic structures in the double helix. Its surface template seems to radically change its “topology” by altering spin states in electrons and protons in its structure to change things.

    A plant, for example, a plant is drawn to absorb the energy buried in sunlight because of how its chloroplasts are organized, and uses it to build sugars, and ejects infrared light, a much less concentrated form of energy. The overall entropy of the universe increases during photosynthesis as the sunlight dissipates once it strikes the leaf, even as the plant prevents itself from decaying by maintaining an orderly internal structure.
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  17. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    In cells, hydrated proteins can vary their size and shape based upon the light energy that is added or subtracted to their molecular bonds. In this way, life can be considered a quantum computer that is working in parallel with a quantum universe that runs on light energy to power up the system. The messages in light energy can be magnetically stored in this thin film using nonlinear aspects of light's physical ability. DNA is the ultimate topologic insulator or superconductor suspended in a superfluid of EZ water that conducts electrons, protons, and photons in different ways we are yet to fully realize much less accept.
    JanSz likes this.
  18. Joe Gavin

    Joe Gavin Face Everything And Rise

    noticed MO was listed as critical. searching around a bit found this: serum MO is raised in those with liver and kidney dysfunction. interesting shit. Wallace + Liver + connection to sunlight= trying to capture more light= lower deuterium level. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7205061
  19. Joe Gavin

    Joe Gavin Face Everything And Rise

  20. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

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