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Discussion in 'Epi-Paleo Recipes' started by Saichi, Jun 27, 2019.

  1. Saichi

    Saichi New Member

    Found a Vermont source for natto Rhapsody Natural Foods.

    3/4 cup natto
    1 raw small duck egg
    smidge of upstate maple syrup
    couple smidges of soy sauce from U.S.A.

    mix egg in well and culinary perfection!
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  2. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    Natto has lots of vitamin K2 as MK7 form. Eggs are probably the most cost effective source of K2 as MK4 form. If you want to make your own natto and have an Asian grocery nearby you can look for dried fermented soybean powder or a similar name because it might not be called natto there and use that as the starter.
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2021
  3. Saichi

    Saichi New Member

    Eventually I'll get into making it but that'll probably entail having one of my friends grow soybeans first. Funny how toxic soy is yet how healthy natto is.
  4. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    You can use the powder or fresh natto to start your own using a bean or grain other than soybeans. The K2 content isn't because of the soybeans, and other things from the fermentation like the nattokinase are probably about as much, or could be more maybe, using other beans or grains.
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  5. Saichi

    Saichi New Member

    Maybe Adzuki bean! I'm flying cross country with a cooler full of natto and some other east coast goodies for my mother.
  6. Anne V

    Anne V Silver

    really good for k2. i was looking for some in the UK
    nearly only 1 place sells it in London the Japanese ??? cant remember the name. there s only 1
    they sell it frozen.

    i saw a you tube video of a specialist in natto
    she was saying frozen it looses half its potency.

    so i would really looked into it before making it up as we go along :)
  7. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    You could use the frozen to start making your own and within a few feeding and fermentation cycles it should be normal strength.

    "At very cold temperatures ... molecules move more slowly, reducing the frequency of enzyme-substrate collisions and therefore decreasing enzyme activity."
    "...freezing ... does not affect enzyme structure – if temperatures are increased after freezing, enzyme activity will be restored."

    Whether you start with fresh, frozen, or dried starter, fermenting the mixture of starter and beans/grains at the right temperature will help the bacteria you want get stronger, and with each cycle of fermenting at the right temperature the leftover you use for starter will be more active in the next batch. After several cycles you might get worse results though unless you sterilize everything each time, and since frozen might take a couple of those cycles to get a strong fermentation, if you want to make it regularly get a fresh one from the store sometimes or the spore powder online.
  8. Katie Durham

    Katie Durham New Member

    K2 is a family of vitamins. MK4 and MK7 are the two most often discussed. They don't do quite the same thing. For instance, one might be more supportive of bone health and one more supportive of cardio health. So you might want both. Here is what Chris Masterjohn has for K2 content in Natto, and if correct although an excellent source of MK7 it does not include MK4: https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/advanced-results-mk-4/entry/5704 Here is his breakdown for butter which is an MK4 source although not generally on par with natto: https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/advanced-results-mk-4/entry/5716 If the butter numbers are not for pastured butter, then there would be more in pastured butter.
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
  9. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    Two detailed articles by Chris Masterjohn about K2:

    Vitamin K2 content searchable database

    Total K2 in any form search results list
    https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/advanced-results-mk-4/?type-of-food=&category=&typesMK=Total Vitamin K2&pass_field=164

    K2 as MK-7 search results list
    So see how black bean natto had about the same MK-7 content as soybean natto, about the same considering that how the fermentation process of the different samples went probably affects the level more than one kind of bean or another.

    K2 as MK-4 search results list
    Table of K2 amounts with focus on MK-4

    Based on the next four links, I think the most cost effective and appetizing way to get MK-4 is probably eggs with the yolks.

    Organic egg yolk, MK-4 = 33 mcg per 100g. One large egg yolk is about 20 g, so 33 mcg MK-4 in five yolks.

    Butter, MK-4 = ~10-22 mcg per 100g. One tablespoon is 14.3 g, so 10-22 mcg MK-4 in seven tablespoons.
    https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/advanced-results-mk-4/?FOOD=butter&category=&typesMK=Total Vitamin K2&pass_field=164#

    Ghee, MK-4 = ~27-36 mcg per 100g. So ~27-35 mcg in seven tbsp.
    https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/advanced-results-mk-4/?FOOD=ghee&category=&typesMK=Total Vitamin K2&pass_field=164#

    Hard cheeses have MK-8 and MK-9 in addition to MK-4.

    Beef liver has some of all the forms of K2 except MK-5. That variety of forms of K2 can maybe be converted and/or work synergistically to make small amounts go further in addition to maybe having unique functions. The beef liver also has vitamins A and D. All those forms of K2 plus the A and D plus the other vitamins and minerals in liver all working synergistically is good.

    Values are reported as mcg per 100g
    Total Vitamin K2= 106
    Total Vitamin K= 108
    MK-4= 1
    MK-7= 18
    Sum of MK-4 + MK-7= 19
    MK-5= 0
    MK-6= 3
    MK-8= 5
    MK-9= 2
    MK-10= 7
    MK-11= 14
    MK-12= 22
    MK-13= 34
    Vitamin K1= 2




    "Although vitamin K is a fat-soluble vitamin, the body stores very small amounts that are rapidly depleted without regular dietary intake. Perhaps because of its limited ability to store vitamin K, the body recycles it through a process called the vitamin K-epoxide cycle (Figure 2). The vitamin K cycle allows a small amount of vitamin K to be reused many times for protein carboxylation, thus decreasing the dietary requirement."

    "Another source of long-chain menaquinones (MK-7 to MK-13) is animal livers (9)."

    More about long-chain K2 synthesis in the gut and storage in the liver is on page 3 under "Non-dietary sources" and page 6 under "Tissue stores of Vitamin K". Page 11 under "Dietary deficiency in humans" talks about long-chain storage in the liver and slower turnover rate of long-chain K2 forms. By eating liver that has those long-chain forms, it probably quickly builds the person's liver stores (and again, the variety of forms of K2 can maybe be converted and/or work synergistically to make small amounts go further in addition to maybe having unique functions).
    http://williams.medicine.wisc.edu/vitamin_K_review_2008.pdf ("Metabolism and cell biology of Vitamin K" by Shearer and Newman)

    Anyway, yum yum.
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021
    NDC74 and Saichi like this.

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