1. Registering for the Forum

    We require a human profile pic upon registration on this forum.

    After registration is submitted, you will receive a confirmation email, which should contain a link to confirm your intent to register for the forum. At this point, you will not yet be registered on the forum.

    Our Support staff will manually approve your account within 24 hours, and you will get a notification. This is to prevent the many spam account signups which we receive on a daily basis.

    If you have any problems completing this registration, please email support@jackkruse.com and we will assist you.

My Ben Greenfield CT Optimal performance podcast.....is now live.

Discussion in 'Optimal Fitness' started by Jack Kruse, Jun 15, 2012.

  1. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

  2. jonnyh

    jonnyh New Member


    Great listen that was, learnt a fair bit on that. I also just listened to Ben's podcast with Peter Attia on Keto training, that was really good too, well worth the listen.



    One thing on yours Jack, you mention part way through that's it's important to get a test done, cortisol versus something else ratio, I couldn't hear right what the something else was, can you shed some light on that p[lease?



    Thanks
     
  3. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    DHEA.......it is called the adrenal stress index or ASI
     
  4. jonnyh

    jonnyh New Member


    Many thanks for reply Jack....now to hunker down and read your new blog!
     
  5. JamesC

    JamesC New Member

    Thanks Jack. The podcast answered a ton of questions I had about ct and athletic performance. I just have a couple more.

    1. When should I be getting out of the tub when adapting, after I start shivering or should I force my self to stay in longer. I know the more I shiver in the tub the worse it gets when I get out. Although I now know shivering is a good thing.



    2. Is there a point of diminishing returns, would lets say spending 20 hours of CT be better than 10
     
  6. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    when you get out you will shiver more because the brain is readapting to the change in cold receptors.....in the water they become fatigued due to the chronic cold.....this tells the brain its a longer term issue so it dials up the TRH response to go from WAT to BAT and for maximum thermogenesis to happen........when you step out the cold receptors recover in air temps and that change is sent to the brain for new instructions......shivering results.....as process reverses.



    No one knows the point of diminishing returns......yet as far as I know......personally I think cold is how life evolved so I think it is the primordial condition and why people who say its hormetic are dead wrong. I think warm is hormetic........not cold. We are naturally adapted to the cold because life began that way. Every time life has faced massive climate change to cold.......it responds like a rock star........the one time Heat was the issue.......IN the Permian extinction.......life almost ended permanently. Its called the great dying for a reason..........I think when you want to learn what life responds best and worst to open up the evolutionary text books and take a peek........the answers are there for those with no preconceptions of what is right or wrong.
     
  7. Barry

    Barry New Member


    Jack,



    just to clear a few things up. I haven't been CT adapting for 3 years. I have done some but not the full protocol and not all year round. I would say I'm FST adapted, which I have explained in my thread. As I've mentioned before, I believe many if not all of the adaptations that come from CT, come also from FST.



    Secondly, there is one major factor to take into consideration here. Top Athlete versus Recreational Athlete. Most studies that show significant effects from the stimulus be it training or nutrition usually are done on the "untrained". For example, put myself and Jack through the same study using a HIIT exercise protocol. I gaurantee you Jack will get more gains than me. And herein lies the problem when it comes to truly assessing the affects of CT.



    Athletes already have many of the attributes that "normal" people wish for. Exercise converts WAT to BAT. Insulin sensitivity is improved by exercise, AMPK switches on, mTOR switches on, Mitochondrial biogensis occurs, Fat Adaptation happens. All of this can be then upregulated through FST and various other stress's that the athlete either purposely or foolishly places upon themselves.... e.g. try doing 40 x 400m sprints on the track, or run 50miles one day followed by 50miles the next... I know athletes that do these things.



    So when it comes to CT, and whether or not it improves performance, the above has to be taken into account. You say you have seen more gains with youths, perhaps this is simply because they are "untrained". You say IGF-1 and Testosterone increases... it might happen with sedentary folk for sure but does this happen with experienced elite athletes ? Do we have any numbers to prove it ?



    So my initial question is as follows:



    1. CT upregulates BAT and UCP, but so does exercise (and so does FST even more). If experienced athletes are already adapted, how does CT improve things ?
     
  8. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Barry that is simple......BAT has the greater hormone effect than exercise? Why? CT reduces hunger to make FST natural......exercise does the opposite.......this lowers the IGF1 and Testosterone effects.



    The metabolic effects you are looking for on a cellular level for performance are what take 24-36 months to induce. The hormone response happens in a few months.
     
  9. Barry

    Barry New Member


    My own research and personal experience shows that exercise does not increase hunger. I have seen studies where Ghrelin and peptide YY are not affected by exercise. Maybe in the obese this happens, but not with athletes or healthy individual.



    You also mentioned how CT depletes glycogen resulting in adaptations. Yes true, but so does exercise, especially with a full time elite athlete training schedule and especially with FST !



    So why CT for glycogen depletion ?? Athletes are depleting glycogen all the time on a continuous basis.
     
  10. johnnyb

    johnnyb Gold

    When I exercise more I get an increased appetite. Other people have expressed this to me as well. Gary Taubes talks a lot about how this is part of the calories in calories out failure. If understand correctly, CT destroys leptin and hunger while exercise not so much even if Ghrelin is unaffected. I should say that exercise decreases hunger temporarily in that I'm not hungry for a while after exercise, but my appetite does go up on the whole.
     
  11. Barry

    Barry New Member


    Its not leptin, its NPY which CT reduces. Prolonged exercise can inhibit NPY release too



    Besides, its not appetite that is the primary determinant of performance with athletes. I need to emphasize this. What Taubes and others are referring to are sedentary and/or obese people. Let me put this into perspective, here is a typical daily training schedule of an elite triathlete



    6-8am: Swim, 5Km



    11-13.30: Bike, 60-70km



    16.00-17.00: S&C, core



    18.00 - 19.00: 60min run, could be tempo or intervals



    And thats an "average" day, and many have been doing that for years.



    This is what I want to focus on here. Experienced athletes, with full training schedules, lean, healthy,
     
  12. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    The answer is in CT 6. Cold destroys hunger......exercise increases it. You are mixing concepts because you are also fasting and ketotic......Ben G group and all warm adapted elite athletes do not do this and this is people report hunger after exercise. In fact if you you look at the literature........every doc will tell you to exercise to lose weight and their is no support at all for this assertion.......exercise will make you gain weight if your diet is not tied to the environment........and in todays world it is not.
     
  13. Barry

    Barry New Member


    Jack,



    You may have missed my other comment but elite athletes are different animals to the average joe. Just watch any pro triathlon race, cycling event or marathon... the pro's are lean as... we're talking 4-6% BF for most...



    and most of these are warm adapted, following a warm adapted diet. They have no weight issues though. I know hundreds of them. Suppressing appetite is not an issue for them with their training load. They're energy expenditure is just off the scale. There is literally 1 or 2 pro athletes that have weight problems that I have dealt with... and when I say weight "problem"... I mean 10% BF instead of 6%..



    So its not appetite and performance. And its not glycogen depletion.



    The challenging continues, but the objective is constructive ;-)
     
  14. nonchalant

    nonchalant Silver


    Holy Mackerel! Someone is disagreeing with Jack, but not about his grammar or without erecting straw men? No emotion or hyperbole? Just calmly discussing the differing points of view? This is great!
     
  15. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Lol..........
     
  16. Barry

    Barry New Member


    Lets just cut straight to the chase then;



    Lance Armstrong - is not and as far as I know from inside sources, keto-adapted or even paleo. You say CT and Keto-Adaptation are a must. I agree. Yet you use the example of Lance Armstrong all the time, when in fact he is a) not keto and b) not fully CT either. He might do the odd session in cold but I can tell you he is not doing 45min ice baths @55F with 20lbs of ice on his chest. You have to remember that the 7 Tour de France he won were done in extreme heat, lasting over 3 weeks. They use compression, 10-15min leg ice baths and thats about it. Food is high carb, not paleo.



    Sherpas - so altitude, cold and keto (although they are not keto as you have mentioned) has improved their effieciency. And yes, they can climb Everest better than most. However, they are not elite athletes. Do you know any Sherpa that can run a 2.05 marathon ?? Wil Hoff is cold adapted, yes, and has ran a 4hr marathon. Big deal. Get him to run sub 2.30 and then we might have something to go on.



    Astronauts: so their VO2 might go up from 45 to 55. Thats nothing in terms of athletic prowess. The "average" regular athlete has VO2 in the 60's... most athletes are in the 70's, some in the 80's. one or two in the 90's.



    I've read all your stuff and I'm on your side. I just fail to see how your references to Armstrong, Phelps, Sherpa's prove that elite performance can be enhanced by CT/Keto. Sherpa's, Astronauts, Will Hoff are not elite. Armstrong, Phelps are not keto, and are periodically using cold. So it just doesn't add up.



    I'm also out in the field of battle, and I can tell you, it ain't that pretty !!
     
  17. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Barry I think youre missing my point.......if we take avg people and they can do elite things in cold.......what might we do to elite athletes who do the same.........we dont know......and that was the point in the podcast.



    Guys like you are going to find out. People like Lance, Phelps, etc......wont adapt until they know the investment of ketoadaptation is worth the time delay.
     
  18. Danco3636

    Danco3636 Silver

    What average people have done elite things in cold? Also what average people have done things because of cold? I do see Barry's point.....

    Interesting discussion.
     
  19. Barry

    Barry New Member


    Do you think athletes in ketosis can perform at top end ? I'm talking high performance endurnance... fast marathon runners, 10Km runners, Olympic Distance Triathletes, Tour de France Cyclists



    If so, what exactly is the mechanism that allows them to use ketones and triglycerides at high intensity ?
     
  20. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Barry;32280 wrote: Its not leptin, its NPY which CT reduces. Prolonged exercise can inhibit NPY release too



    Besides, its not appetite that is the primary determinant of performance with athletes. I need to emphasize this. What Taubes and others are referring to are sedentary and/or obese people. Let me put this into perspective, here is a typical daily training schedule of an elite triathlete



    6-8am: Swim, 5Km



    11-13.30: Bike, 60-70km



    16.00-17.00: S&C, core



    18.00 - 19.00: 60min run, could be tempo or intervals



    And thats an "average" day, and many have been doing that for years.



    This is what I want to focus on here. Experienced athletes, with full training schedules, lean, healthy,
     

Share This Page