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More Vitamin D (Sun) Truth

Discussion in 'Educating Doctors' started by DrEttinger, Dec 2, 2020.

  1. DrEttinger

    DrEttinger Choice, the only thing we control

    Hot off the presses:

    The precursor form of vitamin D - (25-Hydroxycalciferol - this is the most common form tested on blood labs)
    The active form of vitamin D - (1, 25 Dihydroxycaldiferol [Calcitriol] - which is rarely tested for)

    ..."We were surprised to find that microbiome diversity—the variety of bacteria types in a person's gut—was closely associated with active vitamin D, but not the precursor form,"...

    Because they live in different regions of the U.S., the men in the study are exposed to differing amounts of sunlight, a source of vitamin D. As expected, men who lived in San Diego, California got the most sun, and they also had the most precursor form of vitamin D.

    But the team unexpectedly found no correlations between where men lived and their levels of active vitamin D hormone.

    "It seems like it doesn't matter how much vitamin D you get through sunlight or supplementation, nor how much your body can store," Kado said. "It matters how well your body is able to metabolize that into active vitamin D, and maybe that's what clinical trials need to measure in order to get a more accurate picture of the vitamin's role in health."

    In my opinion, pan-epigenetic factors determine one's overall health status, not the abundance of one for the sake of others. Dr. Ettinger

    JanSz, Dan2 and John Schumacher like this.
  2. Thank you for sharing - @DrEttinger
    DrEttinger likes this.
  3. In the referenced article: Vitamin D metabolites and the gut microbiome in older men https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19793-8
    • Men with higher levels of 1,25(OH)2D and higher activation ratios, but not 25(OH)D itself, are more likely to possess butyrate producing bacteria that are associated with better gut microbial health. In the healthy colon, butyrate-producing bacteria including Firmicutes provide enterocytes with short-chain fatty acids for energy production.
    • It was shown that butyrate, in combination with 1,25(OH)2D in the conditioning media, leads to upregulation of VDR expression in cultured colonic epithelial cell.
    • However, loss of vitamin D signaling results in increased levels of Bacteroides and Proteobacteria, with fewer normal Firmicutes including Ruminococcaceae, Lachnospiraceae, and Lactobacillaceae.
    • High level dosing of vitamin D supplementation suggests that -> vitamin D in doses ranging from 4400 to 9800 IU daily (for a 70 kg person) given over 8 weeks did not change the composition of the stool microbiome.
    The researchers did a 2 week mouse experiment using conventionaliztion with microbiota using a butyrate-producing bacteria. The results were an increase in all vitamin D metabolites. However, the conventionaliztion ingredients were not listed.

    Bottomline: Butyrate production and vitamin D metabolism within the gut should be evaluated together when determining vitamin D status from the microbiome.

    Question: @DrEttinger -> Which stool analysis tool do you use in your practice? Do you use https://www.viome.com/
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
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  4. DrEttinger

    DrEttinger Choice, the only thing we control

    GI MAP

    It does not measure SCFA levels. Genova's GI Effects does that.
    JanSz and John Schumacher like this.
  5. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK New Member

    If the study was based on a clinical definition of vitamin D deficiency of (25(OH)D < 20 ng/ml) that could skew the results ...?

    "A vitamin D3 25OH level of 30 ng/ml, which is considered “the lower limit of normal” is really just the “I don’t have rickets” level

    One of the interesting things she said in reply to a question on one of her blogs is that the “active” form D3 1, 25 OH does not go into the brain. Its the D 3 25OH that does go into the brain and helps us sleep. Has me wondering if when vasopressin rises, conversion to 1.25 stops? A day-night change in microbiome action? I'm wondering this if it links to brown bears who don't poo or pee during hibernation, and it could be the drop in D levels that eventually cause the bear to sleep less, and initiate the wake up in Spring? :confused:
    John Schumacher and JanSz like this.
  6. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    That is good question
    when vasopressin rises, does conversion to 1.25 stops?
    Note that
    according to dr Boros (tests)
    most peoples have ADH=1 or less, (ADH: 0.0−4.7 pg/mL)
    due to drinking too much water.
    046557: Antidiuretic Hormone (ADH) Profile | LabCorp
    John Schumacher likes this.
  7. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK New Member

    Which would presumably mean that not drinking enough during the day could mean someone's vasopressin being chronically raised and there being little conversion ...? :confused: Then there's the effects of high vasopressin and low vitamin D on the architecture of sleep ...:confused:
    John Schumacher likes this.
  8. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    There is a big difference between:
    not drinking enough
    drinking just right
    drinking too much
    (ADH: 0.0−4.7 pg/mL)

    I am assuming that getting ADH of about 2.35 is good goal.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
    John Schumacher likes this.
  9. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK New Member

    I think it would fluctuate both in terms of water balance, and the circadian cycle?
    John Schumacher likes this.
  10. When reviewing: arginine, vasopressin, serotonin, oxytocin -> I find:
    Question: Is this why women are so smart? Their love hormone is oxytocin.

    Bottomline: Men -> romance the woman in your life & Women -> give him a chance to try
    It could be therapeutic for you both.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
    JanSz likes this.
  11. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Hopefully no offence to any women (specially my DW, God bless her soul).
    After watching her; (and now my DGF);
    I think that most women's drive is much more about procreation then love of particular man.

    Genesis 19:32 Come, let us get our father drunk with wine, so that we can sleep with him and preserve his line." (biblehub.com)

    John Schumacher likes this.
  12. Thank you -> I laughed and laughed

    Men's drive & desire seem much more pleasure based. Where women seem more accommodating and think more about the outcomes.
    JanSz likes this.

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