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Looking for Illustration of Arginine Pathways

Discussion in 'Biohacking 101' started by persistence, Nov 24, 2014.

  1. persistence

    persistence New Member

    Does anyone have a good illustration showing pathways of arginine to nitric oxide? Apparently this pathway is often disturbed by too-high levels of Asymmetric dimethylarginine (ADMA):

    http://www.proactivehearthealth.net/ADMA.html

    ADMA can be metabolized to a lower level by the enzyme dimethylarginine dimethylaminohydrolase (DDAH).
    I have very low nitric oxide levels, and I'm trying to learn enough about this pathway to see if I can get my nitric oxide higher. I supplement a lot of arginine, but my high ADMA levels apparently interfere with the enzyme needed to convert the arginine to nitric oxide. I'm trying to research if there are good strategies to lower ADMA or raise DDAH, to address this imbalance and allow my arginine to convert over to nitric oxide.
     
  2. Actually, I have heard Jack talk about it often but I don't know if he has ever written about the pathway. I feel he has described it here and there in various blogs. He even talked about the pathway on the recent podcast he did with two anti aging doctors in which he talked about CT. I will listen to it again and write up briefly what he discussed.
     
  3. persistence

    persistence New Member

    So far, arginine does nothing for me. Citrulline also does nothing. I took both four times a day in high doses. Nitric oxide very low.

    I tried the Neo40 supplement, and nothing....

    Finally, I tried eating nitrate rich foods, and that brought my nitric oxide levels to normal.
     
    Kristi Lambert likes this.
  4. rlee314 likes this.
  5. I just posted the podcast in this thread in which Jack talks about arginine. I believe NO is made from tyrosine and aspartic acid. Am I right? I am saying that off the top of my head.
     
  6. persistence

    persistence New Member

    Nitric Oxide should be made from Arginine and enzyme nitric oxide synthase. As people age, a chemical named ADMA rises which competes for that enzyme. So even though you have enough Arginine around to generate adequate nitric oxide, your body can't use it.

    If you take Arginine alone, most of that ends up combining with Arginase in the gut and liver to make ornithine.

    If you take Citrulline, that goes to kidneys where Arginine is made from it and then sent straight to the blood. So even though it is less energy efficient, Citrulline will create more bioavailable Arginine.

    In my case, I cannot budge nitric oxide levels with either Arginine or Citrulline.
     
  7. persistence

    persistence New Member

  8. I will listen to the podcast again today. There are so many gems in it. So I will listen and transcribe what he said. How are you testing your NO levels?
     
  9. persistence

    persistence New Member

    I heard the section on nitric oxide. I think he is discussing a different angle, and he didn't get into much detail.

    I'm using test strips from berkeleytest.com. The interesting comment about all of these test strips for nitric oxide you hear many people make is that they must be defective because they register near zero levels of NO. They did the same for me, but now after starting to eat nitrate rich foods I get near target levels.

    This is the problem with 90% of nutritional supplementation. Unless you have a way to test the end result frequently, I get the feeling that most of the supplements we take do nothing or do something unexpected (sometimes harmful). In my case I was taking megadoses of arginine and citrulline and getting no benefit.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2014
  10. This is such a great story. I didn't know you could get NO strips. Do you know of any other such strips?

    I transcribed the section of the podcast to the best of my ability.

    Question to Jack: How do you address NO defeciencies?

    Jack: NO originally comes form l arginine an amino acid. If you improve mitochondrial functioning, endothelial nitric oxide synthesase will be good, but current on the inner mitochondrial membrane is good. If you eat the epi paleo diet and do CT, you will improve your mitochondrial functioning naturally, which will improve NO production. Stay ketogenic, use CT and realize that people with NO deficiencies during summer have a severe nitrogen and sulfur deficit in their skin in the summer which you must fix during the long light cycle. When you eat a lot of green, leafy veg, and colors of rainbow that Terry Wahls talks about, you can replenish sulfur and oxygen in the skin. Take advantage of that in the summer. When it is cold, you can then upregulate the NO Pathway which works in cold temps. When does hydrogen sulfide work, in summer? What links them together water chemistry. Every 2% you’re dehydrated, your metabolic rate drops by almost 10%. Follow your BUN/Creatine levels when doing CT, as it is important then.
     
  11. persistence

    persistence New Member

    The problems with the above:

    1) There are no double blind studies proving any of this.

    2) To implement an experiment is extremely complex, involves complete lifestyle changes, etc. At the end of the day you might become ketogenic, use cold therapy, eat sulfur (something I cannot do because of a mercury toxicity issue I am fighting), etc, and you might STILL have zero nitric oxide.

    Maybe he is right, but isn't it a whole lot easier to just eat five or six foods that are very high in nitrates?
     
  12. If you are fighting a Mercury issue, you would like the other podcast Jack recently did with an American guy living in Ecuador. He talked about his own Mercury fillings. I think you should hear it. Here it is.

     
    rlee314 likes this.
  13. I really think this is fascinating what you're saying about the NO strips and the difference it makes with nitrate rich foods. What nitrate rich foods are you eating?

    This is really great stuff.

    Mel
     
  14. persistence

    persistence New Member

    I have not isolated which of the foods is responsible for the effect I see, but the ones that are on paper high in nitrates are celery, butter lettuce, arrugula, and basil. Arrugula in particular (known as rocket or rocola in Europe) is ridiculously high in nitrates. These are the ones I am taking.

    Here is a chart of some of the top choices:

    http://nutritionfacts.org/video/vegetables-rate-by-nitrate/

    I have been looking for a source of rhubarb but cannot find it. I guess it is seasonal?
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2014
  15. persistence

    persistence New Member

    I listened to the Youtube video. Mercury comes in different forms. Mercury amalgams give you an organic form that is disposed primarily through kidneys. Food gives you methylmercury that is primarily disposed through liver. Quicksilver has a nice test called the Mercury Tri-Test that is very precise and shows exact levels of each species of mercury in hair, blood, and urine. They are then able to do calculations on how well your kidneys and liver dispose of whatever load you have.

    Some people react to a high constant load more than other people do. In some cases, you don't dispose of either type correctly and you just constantly back up amounts held in tissues. There is no one size fits all.

    Jack makes the point in the video that the people who have problems with mercury have shot mitochondria. Well, mine are shot. Some people would say that mercury binds to the cell membranes and that helps to do that mitochondrial damage. I have no idea what the sequence of events was in my case.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2014
  16. Jack mentioned in the Mitochondria RX webinar that he was going to do a blog or webinar on the arginine pathway. He hasn't done it yet. I have a feeling he has something up his sleeve. I have a feeling he hasn't felt that we are ready for it. I have a feeling we're almost there after some of his latest blogs. I think the story will be well worth waiting for especially now that we have this new information. I believe when he hits us up with the arginine pathway it is going to blow us out of the water. Do you feel it coming?
     
  17. You have been great at recommending these home tests. Would you be able to list some of your favorite home tests or home testing suppliers. I will give you some tests also that I have found. I have made some notes as Jack drops things here and there about tests. I am going to get HBOT treatment and a Meyer's cocktail today so I will be out all day and not be able to do this. I have developed an acute leaky gut for some reason and some auto immunity. I actually know why. I listened to the old Deep CT webinar yesterday and found the cause in there.

    Have you tried the Mitochondria RX webinar, and read the mitochondria RX blog? I have gone through those carefully and made my own "Cliff notes" on those two pieces. I just took all Jack's recommendations and put them in lists and categorized them. I will post them here for you over the weekend. Look forward to the Q and A Sunday. Will you be there?
     
  18. persistence

    persistence New Member

    Sounds interesting. In reading the studies on this online, it doesn't look like it is a great mystery why older people don't convert Arginine to Nitric Oxide. It will be interesting if he has a take on how to alter that.

    I'm still at the experimenting stage with eating nitrate rich foods. I don't understand why some days I will eat a lot of them and have good nitric oxide readings on the strips all through middle of the next day. Other days the nitric oxide seems to disappear nearly overnight and by next morning I am at zero again. It's a tricky business.
     
  19. Do you have any "personal thunderstorms"? Have you hacked your environment? Do you spend too much time in front of your computer or in your head?

    There was great doctor who did a sleep webinar this year for the members. He talked a lot about journaling every aspect of your life and environment to start to see patterns. I think this would be great for you. If you journaled daily about your environment, foods you eat, your activity, you would then start to be able to compare your labs with your lifestyle and find what is going on. Can you do that?
     
  20. persistence

    persistence New Member

    I have definite circadian rhythm issues. Not only do I tend to stay up late naturally, but now that osteopaths have me on high dose B vitamins, these seem to further stimulate me to stay up.

    But even taking this into account, on the days when I do get lots of great sleep at appropriate hours, you cannot compare me today to how I was prior to Dec 2013 (or thereabouts). I had sudden, pronounced, and almost shocking changes in energy level, cardiac rhythm, brain function, response to aerobic exercise (I form unbearable amounts of acid, so I am probably stuck in glycolysis), auditory symptoms, etc. The sudden onset and profound nature of these symptoms suggest to me that this is not about aging and not about lifestyle, but something external influenced my biology profoundly and quickly.

    The best evidence so far suggests that I took high doses of alpha lipoic acid (ALA) starting in Nov 2013 and unknown to me this is a great heavy metal chelator that crosses the blood brain barrier. I may have managed to move mercury that was stable in body tissues into my brain, where it is a lot harder to get back out. It could be I have bad or inefficient disposal systems, and it may also be that I have a low tolerance for metals. I make slow progress towards reversing all of this.
     

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