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Josh's Journal

Discussion in 'My Optimal Journal' started by Josh (Paleo Osteo), Apr 22, 2014.

  1. great weather here on the surf coast lately, between 25 and 35 rather consistently
    last two weeks UV index between 7 and 9

    still travelling between here and bendigo to the clinic, which i believe is still my lifes major stressor
    making plans to sell our house up there which will take us close to debt free and allow me to work less...some people think i dont work enough as it is, but i am feeling work to be more and more of a "give" and an "energy sink"

    good to see @yewwei.tan last weekend, as ever, some great conversation around health "memes" and lots of unpacking mitochondrial dynamics, juman design etc

    one thing to note regarding sleep:
    i have never had trouble getting to sleep. perhaps the only time it is ever hard is if i go to bed before i am tired, or too early.
    once there, usually nodded off within 5 minutes.

    lately i have been getting into intense REM with extremely vivid and lucid dreams that are so clear that i can even remember things like making plans, forming friendships/relationships with strangers, forming trust, taking phone calls to orchestrate meetings etc
    what i have noticed however is that amidst these dreams, tension mounting from the dream situation creates a huge surge in body temperature and i wake up and have to pee...it is as if the urgency from the dream situation manifests as nocturia...(last night it was missing three important phone calls, then finally taking the call but the voice was muddled russian, and in trying my hardest to slow the conversation down and take notes, i missed a train in siberia and was stranded in a small town)
    often after getting up, i find my mind is 100% switched on and clear, but i am running over all the possibilitied of what is happening in my head and creating further agitation...there is also the fact that i never know what time it is when it happens (no power in room/no clock) though i suspect it is usually 2-3am not later...it can often take 30 mins to get back to sleep with diaphragmatic breathing exercises and non dual awareness exercises.

    i guess this has happened on and off for a year or more, but seems more pronounced. i have tried spending 4 days in a row outside for 75% of the day either ocean swimming or sunning whilst grounded, no change to the sleep pattern...
    the last time i slept a full night with no waking was i think after spending an entire day paddleboarding in the sun, mood was ecstatic afterwards and i experienced the "full body tired" i remember from when i was playing ice hockey, i had not had that in some time...

    sometimes the waking to pee is in a haze and i am straight back asleep again, when it coincides with the temperature rise and vivid dreams it is harder to get back to sleep...i will clarify that the dreams are not really "nightmares" just very full on clear situations...

    i suspect this is an inappropriate cortisol response as my AM ASI was, whilst normal curve, slightly on the low side, and i think the catalyst, whilst it was great for other stressors in my life, was moving out of our bendigo house and down here, i remember many sleepless nights as the time to move rolled around and i think it screwed my PVN~ :\
  2. yewwei.tan

    yewwei.tan Gold

    First thought is some sort of Serotonin imbalance. That then hints at some gut-mediated issues, since almost all serotonin is produced there.

    This is a study in snails, but there is plausible reason to believe the same mechanisms are at work in us. "Reinstatement of long-term memory following erasure of its behavioral and synaptic expression in Aplysia" (Chen et. al., 2014) -- http://elifesciences.org/content/early/2014/11/17/eLife.03896

    Basically some speculation that Serotonin can express neural connections that re-potentiate long-term memory. They leave a speculatory note that this has implications for PTSD; ie: having a traumatic memory re-activated again and again by serotonin excess.

    Some will link the Serotonin and Estrogen systems together to explain Hot Flushes, "The role of serotonin in hot flushes" -- http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378512200001511 . Again, this is plausible.

    I haven't read this, though I should :whistle: "Dreams, Hallucinogenic Drug States, and Schizophrenia: A Psychological and Biological Comparison" (Fischman et. al., 1983) -- http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/content/9/1/73.short . Claims that serotonin is a key regulator of such states, including dreams. Believable, especially since serotonin is so chemical similar to hardcore hallucinogens like DMT. (both contain the tryptamine structure and constituent indole ring. That ring is the likely functional structure)

    Ray Peat is very much against serotonin, as well as dietary tryptophan excess (eg: too much muscle meats) -- http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/tryptophan-serotonin-aging.shtml . Basically mentions all the symptoms you describe, like serum osmolarity dysfunction (waking up and going to pee).

    The article is worth reading, but the practical recs are:

    Gelatin, besides being a good source of glycine, also contains a large amount of proline, which has some antiexcitatory properties similar to glycine.

    If a half-pound of steak is eaten, it would probably be reasonable to have about 20 grams of gelatin at approximately the same time. Even a higher ratio of gelatin to muscle meat might be preferable.

    Carbon dioxide, high altitude, thyroid, progesterone, caffeine, aspirin, and decreased tryptophan consumption protect against excessive serotonin release. When sodium intake is restricted, there is a sharp increase in serotonin secretion. This accounts for some of the antiinflammatory and diuretic effects of increased sodium consumption--increasing sodium lowers both serotonin and adrenalin.

    The polyunsaturated oils interact closely with serotonin and tryptophan, and the short and medium chain saturated fatty acids have antihistamine and antiserotonin actions. [avoid PUFA and eat some Coconut oil]​

    Sounds like something to test out ;) (and drop the gluten)

    Apparently the affects of the drug Ecstasy is Serotonin-mediated as well ;) "The serotonin uptake inhibitor citalopram reduces acute cardiovascular and vegetative effects of 3, 4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (‘Ecstasy’) in healthy volunteers" (Matthias E. Liechti and Franz X. Vollenweider, 2000) -- http://jop.sagepub.com/content/14/3/269.short

    haidut on the Peat forums claims that having lots of dreams is a sign of high serotonin, and recommends acute doses of Niacinamide (amide form of nicotinic acid / Vitamin B3 / niacin) when under stress -- https://raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=33531#p33531

    At 2,000mg [of niaciamide] you should have a very good night sleep with no awakenings and no dreams. I am not sure where Peat mentioned that, but vivid dreams happen when the body is not in deep sleep and is usually caused by too much serotonin/melatonin. Niacinamide, for me, brings back the childhood quality of sleep - go to bed and wake up in the morning in the same position I fell asleep.​

    Again, if funds allow, this is a nice experiment to do, and the results will be apparent after a single night (to decide whether to continue using this strategy). I would only do such doses of Niaciamide acutely (say at most once a week).


    As for "The Perfect Sleep", I have a biased intuition to say that "child-like sleep", whereby you sleep straight through the night with no waking and no dreams whilst feeling refreshed afterward, is a good symptom to shoot for. Whatever methodology that promotes that is probably good.


    Heheh, you know I can work hard, but also can spend half my time doing nothing at all :zzz:. Need to take today and tomorrow as solid planned do-fuck-all time before getting back to the grind :coffee:. Time to live the "Layzee Aussie" stereotype :rofl:.

    kovita and cantweight like this.
  3. serotonin excess...hmmf...negative feedback control with the receptors/serotonin resistance?? one would expect to be bouncing off the walls with joy...this is not really me at present
    i agree that perfect sleep should be childlike. this is what i am craving lately.

    also recall ben lynch having some issues with niacin use because it has a depleting effect on methyl groups...i guess this is why acute dosing is important, and probably a time release form...looks like a hack for niacinamide + sauna

    i am waiting for someone to say environment, but i am pretty sure its quite good now (although the travel to the other town means 3 days/2 nights not so good...better sell the other house
  4. yewwei.tan

    yewwei.tan Gold

    I do not agree that Serotonin is a "happiness hormone", and even some of the mainstream share this view -- http://io9.com/the-most-popular-antidepressants-are-based-on-a-theory-1686163236

    Basically, some drugs that happened to raise serotonin seemed to prevent certain symptoms of depression, and then "low serotonin" was attributed as the cause (probably to sell more drugs).

    The article also talks about completely conflicting results, where some serotonin uptake enhancers also had the same effect as serotonin uptake inhibitors, as measured by symptoms of depression. Linking something fuzzy like "symptoms of depression" to "serotonin is good/bad" does not allow us to answer mechanistic effects of serotonin.

    The article mentioned a quick note about how in rodents, high serotonin is often linked to depression. Heheh, probably true, since inescapable electrical shocks raised serotonin in rats -- http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006899397013139 . Though "Rats that were exposed to comparable shock treatment, but that were given the opportunity to escape, did not show an increase in 5-HT. Rats that were restrained but not shocked also did not show an increase in 5-HT"

    Another study confirming that "inescapable stress" is something that raises serotonin in rats -- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7991722

    But now we look at different stress stimuli, and different pre-treatment protocols, and we have people concluding "low serotonin is bad" -- http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/009130579290163A
    • Look at how after having been faced with "escapable stress" (ES) once, the rats continue to try and escape from an inescapable situation, and their serotonin levels are maintained.
    • The 2 drug protocols have the same effect, but this "natural" ES protocol had the same effect without exogenous substances to alter physiology.
    • The rats that were dumped straight into the inescapable stress scenario had low serotonin, and showed a learned helplessness state (did not try to escape)
    What people try to make of such studies is debatable. An absolutely wrong conclusion is that "drugs increase serotonin and therefore cure learned helplessness".
    • (a) drugs weren't even needed; endogenous response maximisation does not correlate with exogenous regulation strategies
    • (b) I don't find the so-called "test for learned helplessness" to be sufficient proof (how about "confused as fuck rats put into a novel situation and see no reason to try and escape")
    In any case, there is so much problem with the serotonin theory of depression / happiness, that that is not a good way to measure the effects of serotonin.


    Well, so what does serotonin do? As usual, I have no clue on the actual mechanism, so we are left with looking at observations of having active serotonin (which activates the 7 5-HT receptors)

    Just a couple of examples:

    - "Serotonin-induced stimulation of cortisol secretion from human adrenocortical tissue is mediated through activation of a serotonin4 receptor subtype." (Lefebvre et. al., 1992) -- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1374544

    Pretty straightforward, more serotonin activity leads to more corticosteroids, which all can be thought of as "energy use enhancers" to basically allow oxidation of any available fuel.

    Another 2 similar studies (done by the same group):

    - "Overexpression of the Serotonin 5-HT2B Receptor in Heart Leads to Abnormal Mitochondrial Function and Cardiac Hypertrophy" (Nebigil et. al., 2003) -- http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/107/25/3223.full

    Transgenic mouse heart displayed a specific reduction in the expression levels of the adenine nucleotide translocator associated to increase in the succinate dehydrogenase and cytochrome C oxidase mitochondrial activities.

    - "Functional Consequence of Serotonin/5-HT2B Receptor Signaling in Heart. Role of Mitochondria in Transition Between Hypertrophy and Heart Failure?" (Nebigil et. al., 2003)

    Same finding basically ('COX' refers to Cyt C oxidase, and 'SDH' refers to Succinate Dehydrogenase):

    Overexpression of 5-HT2BR in the mouse heart leads to abnormally high mitochondrial numbers as observed by transmission electron microscopic analysis and red ragged fiber staining. Moreover, mitochondrial enzyme activities such as COX and SDH are increased in TG mouse hearts.

    Our work has shown that 5-HT via the 5-HT2BR acts as a survival factor, by inhibiting serum withdrawal-induced apoptosis as manifested by DNA fragmentation, nuclear chromatin condensation, and terminal deoxynucleotidyl transferase UTP nick end-labeling (TUNEL)

    5-HT prevents cytoC release and caspase-9 and -3 activation after serum deprivation via cross talk between phosphatidyl-inositol-3 kinase (PI3K)/Akt and ERK1/2 signaling pathways. On activation of Akt by 5-HT, phosphorylation of IκB-α triggers its degradation to release nuclear factor (NF)-κB.

    This activation of NF-κB inhibits serum deprivation-induced adenine nucleotide translocator (ANT) expression to maintain mitochondrial permeability

    Parallel to this pathway, ERK activation by 5-HT inhibits elevation of Bax expression induced by serum deprivation. Defects in the survival pathway in the 5-HT2BR KO heart are not secondary to the cardiomyopathy, because defective cardiomyocyte survival can be reversed by transfection of 5-HT2BR cDNA and leukemia inhibiting factor (LIF) survival signaling is intact.

    In addition, 5-HT did not induce hypertrophy of cultured cardiomyocytes (unpublished observation).

    image: http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/108/7/902.full


    If you ask me, such results hint at Serotonin being yet another "stress hormone", that is, a cellular signalling compound to tell cells to mobilise as much energy as possible in order to deal with an incoming stressor. More mitochondria, more succinate use (fat oxidation), higher threshold autophagy signal so that mitochondria are forced to stick around longer, etc ... just more acute energy production capacity in general.

    Like any such hormone, some is absolutely needed to deal with acute stress, and prolonged stress demands chronically elevated levels of such hormones, which chronically demand energy from the body, which eventually can't keep up. Then some people in the mainstream blame the lack of such hormones as the cause of a disease ;)

    I won't cite the studies here, but there are a couple of studies that show improvements to depression after supplementation of T3, which obviously is pro-metabolic, and can provide energy for the body in place of having to raise serotonin. The efficacy of such thyroid hormone treatment then depends on many other factors :rofl:

    In any case, we're back down to stress avoidance .... :whistle::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz:

    Last edited: Nov 21, 2015
    kovita likes this.
  5. very good outline. just finished a few articles to a similar theme. makes a lot of sense looking back at my melatonin labs from winter: [​IMG]
    more stress = more cortisol = gut mediated effects = more serotonin = more melatonin :/

    (chronic stress must be the problem, acutely stress would trash melatonin in place of cortisol)

    if what we are saying regarding dreams is correct -> more melatonin -> less "deep sleep" and more REM/dreamstate


    interestingly peat had a cite about childhood trauma/stress in utero or in infancy which made me revert instantly to my traumatic birth

    must find a pic of day 2 after birth, i was bruised black and blue due to mothers anteverted coccyx which they had to break off to get me out....many infantile pics i am the poster child for cortisol, massive moon face, puffy etc

    +1 for quitting work and moving to jamaica...
    shah78 likes this.
  6. kovita

    kovita Gold

    great discussion, here. I think everyone agrees the sleep in general tends to deteriorate with the time (age). I think in the past it took longer time to become so chronically stressed/inflamed than today, that is why we see old people sleep patterns in some kids now. In the past the intracellular infections accumulation (most of them release substances that alter serotonin metabolism) could be an important palyer but now we are moving towards fragmented sleep much faster because the environment is killing us in the first place. I personally moved from the childhood sleep pattern to fragmented in something like a week. I guess women are again just different and as soon as kids around the sleep tuning changes dramatically. And it seem to be lost forever... My melatonin and serotonin levels as measured in the past however do not show the pattern as one would expect based on the facts and studies yew laid here. I can come back to almost childhood sleep pattern by one simple thing that always work. ...going to live and sleep to somewhere without people and peoples things.
  7. agree 100%
  8. kovita

    kovita Gold

    I keep on thinking a lot about the concept of rewiring the brain via your thoughts...the article you posted the other day. It matches my personal story experience. There is a small Austrian company who came out with a nervus vagus stimulator, it in shell works using acupuncture principles and current. A set that lasts about 3 weeks and that you either stop or replace. My doctor friend has used it experimental mode on her most desperate multiple autoimmune diagnosis patients. She has seen unbelievable drops in some important autoimmune markers. Really remarkable. She used the stimulation for max 12 weeks and rechecked after a few months...and... THE MARKERS DID NOT CHANGE. They remained in normal levels. The HRV improved big time too. So the upward stimulation worked evidently through rewiring. I think this is a big evidence, isn't it? I will get one set soon and want to test myself, but for sure you can do the same just with your own gear ;-)
    Joe Gavin and lilly antic like this.
  9. wow......excellent thread....I will return here often for reference. Thanks guys and girl :)
  10. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Nature Josh is what we are attuned too. Every protein is a fluorphore and chromophore for what comes to us naturally. If you dont get it you pay a toll.
  11. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Joe Gavin likes this.
  12. Inger

    Inger Silver

    Joe Gavin and cantweight like this.
  14. freesia

    freesia Old Member

    Sardinian throat singing FTW! ;)
  15. kovita

    kovita Gold

    I like the ohmmmm. I love it on the beach, tuned to the harmony of the sound of the waves. It feels fantastic!
  16. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

  17. Innerfuego

    Innerfuego Gold

    Just searched this topic as dreaming has been increasing but similar to above, waking up to pee middle of night...have filtered rainwater here (RO) so maybe that's it! But the dreaming is a sign of good redox right? cheers
    drezy likes this.

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