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John Ott and Red light

Discussion in 'Beginners Area' started by Omelchenko, Feb 26, 2018.

  1. Omelchenko

    Omelchenko New Member

    Hey everyone, I just finished the first book in the stack of books I purchased on quantum biology. That book is Health and Light. In the book Dr. Ott discusses breifly major issues with mammels under red light. Essentially, there are issues anytime plants or animals are under any sort of artificial light. I know red light doesn't affect circadian rhythm to a large degree. Is the recommendation for red light at night simply the lesser of the two evils? As in, it doesn't mess with melatonin but constant exposure would cause issues? Also, in regareds to blue blockers, would that be of concerns due to it transmitting an unnatural spectrum to the eye? Or is it more akin to fire light at night? Thanks for the help
    drezy and brandie like this.
  2. WalterNL

    WalterNL New Member

    I believe blacklight is the least of all evils at night. And regarding you last question about an unnatural spectrum, for that reason, Alexander Wünsch prefers glasses that reduce all frequencies as opposed to just blocking blue. There's something to be said for that, though I guess it largely depends on how much blue is in your environment after sunset.
    drezy and Sean Waters like this.
  3. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK Gold

    When I was looking for a chart to show the 0 degree solar elevation frequencies I came across this. a) is for rural b) for city. (source https://www.nature.com/articles/srep26756#f1 )
    I don't use red light or red blue blockers at night because I read that red raises IOP. Also I don't know that using red doesn't affect circadian rhythm, because it might be doing it by preventing what it should see. There is a lot of deeply saturated blues in the post sunset solar elevations, visible red isn't dominant. I think we're looking for highly saturated, deepening into darkness frequencies, with no spikes. (Reality 4 says that melanopsin works with light 430-465 nm at dusk, so I'm interested in the dusk frequencies). The frequencies change, and the transitions are important I think because the brain responds to change, and doesn't expect "same". I'm also not sure about using UV at night, with or without red. From the frequency charts I've seen, yellow starts to rise dramatically at a +6 solar elevation in the morning (when UV would be coming in) and decrescendos in late afternoon, with a very low ratio by -6 solar elevation in the evening. If its the drop in yellow and absence of UV that signals circadian rhythm changes at that time (eg for body temp to rise, the leptin receptor, or the blood to come to the skin surface to harvest light, when it doesn't risk UV bleaching the red blood cells), then UV at night might interfere with one or several rhythms.
    Tanya, drezy, Billybats and 3 others like this.
  4. Awainer1

    Awainer1 New Member

    Wunsch said in a podcast that any light after dark reduces melatonin. He said that we’ve had enough time using fire to adapt to it and also that light at night should be used from a lower level not from above. I use a littlite with DC input and use the red filter at night.
  5. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK Gold

    From a different source, the +6 and -6 frequencies and irradiance differences.
    upload_2018-2-28_8-53-49.png (Source http://jeb.biologists.org/content/219/12/1779 Using light to tell the time of day: sensory coding in the mammalian circadian visual network).

    This one gives a visual of a colour sensitive SCN neuron versus a brightness sensitive SCN neuron.
    upload_2018-2-28_9-1-12.png (Source http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002160 A Colourful Clock)

    "Thus, entrainment of the circadian system combines both environmental irradiance and colour information to ensure that internal and external time are appropriately aligned".

    "The spectral composition of light reaching the earth shows less day-to-day variability in spectral composition than in irradiance, and thus, it may have a high predictive value about the position of the sun, as originally predicted by Foster (e.g., 2001)."

  6. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    I like to test.
    Light or absence of light is a driver for circadian Rhythm.
    The best way that I know about testing Circadian Rhythm is testing cortisol and melatonin.
    I newer before tested melatonin.
    I tested cortisol previously and found it very low on, barely over low curve.
    I live in USA zip 07054
    So latitude about 40 deg north
    Based on @Jack Kruse teachings I am doing my best with sun exposure,
    and also have series of artificial light next to my desk where I spend lots of my time.
    My artificial lights, (and day/night time) are best described when reading this post:
    Artificial lighting management for a human locked in small room.

    I am 77yo.
    I did DUTCH test in December 2017


    Comments are welcomed,
    but from DUTCH I got comments that my curves are highly exaggerated.
    They have not seen such curves before.
    (I would like to assume that this exaggeration is positive and due to my light management.)
    Remember, I started with being real close to the low limit.
    Previously (before learning about light effects), I was using HC-hdrocortisone or Medrol.
    Latter I learned (a little) about light, so that allowed me to wean out of HC and medrol.
    But Jack's teaching on light did the rest.

    My melatonin is rather low.
    Not really sure how to deal with it (naturally) (other than what I am doing now).

    One possibility about melatonin is that I force myself to stay in bed for 8hrs.
    Practically I need less bed time, likely 7hr would be enough or even less.
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
  7. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK Gold

    "My current understanding, may change any minute.

    If someone sleeps erratic lengths of time he is exposed to a jet lag.
    Artificial lighting management for a human locked in small room.
    Day length=24hrs
    Light--14 hrs
    Use minimum to no clothes 24/7
    Bed time-10PM
    At 6AM for 2-3 minutes look directly at one Solar Glow 160W
    to shut off pituitary hormone production
    edit 6/7/2017
    Light 6AM-8PM using
    2-Exo Terra Solar Glow 160W
    2 of RubyLux ALL RED
    1 RubyLux Infrared Bulb NIR-A
    Light 8PM-10PM
    2 of RubyLux ALL RED
    1 RubyLux Infrared Bulb NIR-A
    No light at all, any windows blocked completely from the light
    Hand held red light similar to RubyLux ALL RED can be used on the way to the bathroom"

    I don't agree that if someone sleeps erratic lengths of time, he is exposed to jet lag. At my latitude day and night lengths vary through the seasons, but as the seasons change, the day length increases or decreases by a few minutes daily (unless they are mucking about with an hour's change for British Summer Time :mad:). The natural slight change over time in day length isn't erratic, it follows a cycle, and animals in the wild physiologically responding to natural changes in day length aren't experiencing jet lag. How long they sleep may vary depending on light cycle, temperature, or just how knackered/sick they are. I expect to sleep longer in winter (when darkness has fallen by 5 p.m. and the sun doesn't rise until nearer 8 a.m. ) than in summer when day lengths are much longer. But because its a slow transition in line with the solar rhythm, I don't think it is "erratic". Alexander Wunsch told a member at a consultation that he thought we needed more than 8 hours darkness to regenerate at night, so being in total darkness for up to 12 hours in winter at a latitude when I'm dealing with little or no sun during the day, would be natural, and having done it over the winter myself, I have slept longer. The longest I have slept is probably about 10 hours, but I was more physically and mentally tired than usual. If I was sleeping 10 hours plus a night 365 days a year at my latitude I would be worried, but I see it as compensating for sleeping less in summer because of the light cycle.

    I see the solar glow at 6 am is a mismatch. There is no UV at sunrise, and if I was to use UV then I would be keeping the pituitary hormones switched off, instead of turning them on and then turning them off at the right time. The 6 a.m. to 8 p.m. set up is also "same" - it seems more like noon from 6 a.m. to 8 p.m, then there's a nightfall set up that is nothing like the evening frequencies I've seen. I think the brain is looking for the transitions. My thought experiment :confused::D has been .... assuming the only thing left to make a return trip to Mars safe was a circadian rhythm friendly lighting system ......set up to mimic my latitude ....how would I do it ....... I could be a while ...:whistle::rofl:
    Sajid Mahmood and JanSz like this.
  8. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Artificial lighting management
    is not meant to be a perfect replacement of natural day/night cycle.
    If anything it is extreme toward the good side.
    I think of the longest day at my (or your) latitude as a model for it.

    To me the other extreme was a year that I spend in Brazil, latitude 23 south.
    After 3 or 6 months I had a hard time getting used to this 12h light/12 hr dark cycle.

    And I force my self to stay in bed for 8 hrs,
    but I do not use any alarm clocks.
    Once or twice a year I sleep longer than 8 hrs.

  9. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK Gold

    I think one problem with it is that the model picks a set of a range of frequencies and, even if they were "right" or similar enough to a particular solar elevation on the longest day, it doesn't change for 14 hours, and there's no seasonal variation (so if my light set up says longest day, should my eating pattern say the same, even in winter?). The human in a locked room (or working all day say in an office, arriving in the dark), would not have the seasonal crescendoing and decrescendoing light signals for a normal hormone pattern, including cortisol. I see noon as a momentary pause, between the crescendoing and decrescendoing of the morning and afternoon frequencies. If, by never changing, the set up signals "noon", I visualise it as saying "wait", which would have consequences on other circadian rhythms that rely on the missing crescendoing and decrescendoing light signals. I personally believe (at the moment .... it might change ....:D) that the descrescendoing frequencies of late afternoon, when yellow and UV are dropping, and/or when green is becoming more dominant over yellow, is the signal for the blood to come to the surface to harvest light, and repair the skin. I've watched my own skin pink up after getting out of high UV sunlight and under the shade of a leafy tree - going in and out of a green canopy alters my skin response in seconds.

    If, in the morning its the early crescendoing light without UV that signals preconditioning the skin ready for UV, I see it that decrescendoing frequencies, such as yellow and UV dropping, which leave others more dominant at certain times, or in certain places (such as the shade of a tree) makes biologic sense for skin repair and signalling light collection.
    seanb4 and Ted like this.
  10. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Please post if you have idea on improving my setup,
    keeping it simple and easy to use daily?
  11. Ted

    Ted New Member

    I think that what Sue is saying is that you can only have that by being out in the sun. The wavelength of an artificial light source is always static. Only the solar rays are continuously changing.
    JanSz, seanb4 and Jan Christer like this.
  12. Jan Christer

    Jan Christer New Member

    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
    Sajid Mahmood and seanb4 like this.
  13. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK Gold

    If I deliberately use artificial light during the day, its as a treatment 10-20 mins max, and I pick a time to do it that I think is least damaging to the circadian rhythm, and get outside and retune my thalamus afterwards.:)

    In general, I use windows, and let the computer screen wear the blockers. :) Even closed, the windows let in the NIR and all visible frequencies, so I sense the natural fluctuations. If I can't have the windows open to let in UV, I have a black light that I can switch on to put photons into the room, but I'm not looking at it directly, and it is never on before yellow is crescendoing in the morning, or after yellow has descrescendoed in the afternoon . But its rare I use it, I prefer getting outside to ground at regular intervals, even if its just for a few minutes. I can tap into other senses at the same time, which gives my brain more accurate information. I want inside the house to match the outside light frequencies as much as possible.

    In terms of the whole house, before the winter we swapped out 5 doors that didn't need privacy, from solid wood to glazed. That, pale walls and a couple of large mirrors in an otherwise gloomy corridor, makes a difference. I haven't needed to use artificial ambient light between first light to sunset at all over the winter. I've wanted to match the seasonal light frequencies to the other environmental information I'm getting. My office is in an unheated conservatory. On good days over winter its a sun trap, and I've opened the doors to the main house and used it to heat the house during the day. Other days I just work in the cold. So as much natural light as possible during the day, and the least unnatural light after sunset, I've aimed for 10 -12 hours of total darkness at night in winter, whilst living in the cold lane. Next year I'm going to hack up to 15 hours darkness at night, if that's what the environment is giving me. Bring it on .......:D
    Sajid Mahmood, Phosphene, Ted and 2 others like this.
  14. Ted

    Ted New Member

    Nice! That's the way to do it.
  15. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    That is what I do. Usually barefoot, except when the snow turned icy and it would cut my feet.

  16. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK Gold

    My lighting set up was based on a thought experiment about astronauts seeing 13(?) sunrises and sunsets a day. If I go out to the actual natural frequency and back into a noon set up say 13 times a day, how detrimental is seeing 13 noons in a day? :confused:
    seanb4 likes this.
  17. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    So you would rather see 13 mid nights?
    Lets work on middle ground.

    I check my 4x saliva test to figure out my status.
    Indeed it is far from desirable
    on the high side.
    I thought that it would be my better choice to have higher than ideal cortisol (during my active time of the day).

    Not sure what kind argument I will eventuaally buy,
    but now,
    all I have to do is reduce light power over my head,
    that hopefully would lower my freeCortisol curve.


  18. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK Gold

    As it gets dark at night, light is no longer dominant, (or shouldn't be) and we enter the magnetotail, melatonin rising. I see midnight as the "pause" when leptin does its thing, and then we go through the phase of slowly exiting the magnetotail, which influences circadian rhythms such as lowest body temperature, cortisol beginning to rise etc. I doubt I could duplicate that with my lighting set up during the day if I tried to (say by blacking out the house or going deep underground 13 times), because my latitude isn't passing through the magnetotail at the time. :)
    JanSz likes this.
  19. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK Gold

    I thought this pic was interesting in relation to the changing colour frequencies as the day progresses. For shorter days the night time "wedge" would be larger.


    I found the pic on this article about bio adaptive lighting http://sun-lightsolutions.com/our-products/bio-adaptive-lighting/. At first glance the pic seems to suggest that blue light in the evening is not bad, but from the article " For example a study by the School of Psychology in Adelaide showed that the shorter wavelengths of 470, 497, and 525 nm showed the greatest melatonin suppression from 65% to 81%. It is important to manage certain wavelengths of the visible light spectrum at the right times in order to deliver effective bio-adaptive lighting." The - 6 solar elevation chart shows those frequencies dropping considerably when compared to the +6 solar elevation.

    Alexander Wunsch says that at the red end of the spectrum, highly saturated red is stimulating, whereas unsaturated is sedating, but its the reverse for blue. So I read it that naturally occurring highly saturated blues becoming more dominant going into darkness in the evening are sedating whereas as the sun rises in the morning they become less dominant and the main melatonin suppressing frequencies increase.

    Having seen the Ott video on improving hyperactivity in the classroom by a change in the lighting , this was interesting too ..

    "A study in the Netherlands found that increasing illuminance levels in schools at certain times and changing the colour temperature of the lights indicated a positive influence pupils’ concentration. The Philips Schoolvision case study in Hamburg showed remarkable results from applying controllable adaptive lighting in a school environment and empowering the teachers with the ability to affect the lighting conditions. Reading speed increased by almost 35%, concentration improved dramatically and the frequency of errors dropped by almost 45%. Hyperactivity and aggression were also examined. Although the perceived reduction in aggression was not found to be significant, video evidence showed a distinct change in levels of hyperactivity. Observed hyperactivity was reduced by up to 76% when pupils were given a mathematical problem to solve under the Calm lighting scene, a figure that the baseline measurement and control group did not even come close to."
    LisaLearning and drezy like this.
  20. LisaLearning

    LisaLearning Silver

    Hi Sue, I hope you're well. :)

    Just as the light in the UK has been shifting (first days we can make Vit D) we are in the middle of a deep freeze! Thanks for posting these comments from Wunsch - may I ask where they come from (so I can read more)?

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