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iceman. IR and FBG. Dr K nugget in the comments

Discussion in 'Cold Thermogenesis' started by CoolingWeb, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. OMGosh, I am so glad to FINALLY find people with the same problem I have been trying to figure out for 2.5 years. I went Paleo and my FBG number went up, my Doctor was shocked and said I was lying about how low carb I was. It has been high ever since and when I crossfit it gets worse. IF'ing makes things worse too. I feel like I had tried everything. My FBG numbers have averaged 127. I started LR last week and will begin CT tonight. I am pretty excited to see numbers below 100 and very scared of the shivers!!
  2. CoolingWeb

    CoolingWeb New Member

    Hello Gladina,

    Thank you for the encouragement. Dr. K once said that CT works with one degree below your temperature. It just takes longer.

    Now that I know Dr.K has written the CT posts long time ago I think he should have posted the CT Protocol back in Oct/11. I only got to CT with cold water for few weeks before spring hit. First time in my life I was not too crazy spring is here. LOL

    I felt so cheated. LOL

    Spot CT works as far as I read. Many report that in the comments of CT5 and 6 if I remember correctly. I know .. I read all comments. :D

    Keep cooling.

  3. CoolingWeb

    CoolingWeb New Member

    Hello BagladyLKN

    Welcome to the hopeful and desperate thread. Toxin dumping is your next step. Just go slowly and allow your body to handle the dumping.

    Please keep us posted with your progress.

  4. CoolingWeb

    CoolingWeb New Member


    today my FBG is 121.

    Yesterday, No exercise day. NO CT. Sea is high.

    6:30 am BAB (Only Shrimp and boiled eggs)

    Various teas (herbal and regular) and Coffee

    4:30pm dinner (chicken breast with sauteed onion and almost raw garlic in bone broth)

    6:30pm Tea curcumin cinnamon and ginger (helps with leaky gut)

    8:30pm asleep.

    Today (after 8 hours of sleep and almost 12 hours fasting)

    5:00am awake no alarm clock. FBG 121.


  5. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    DAWN pheno is from loss of leptin control in PEPCK enzyme. CT gets it back faster than anything and this is why cold is the best treatment for diabetes.
    rlee314 and Kristi Lambert like this.

  6. Read all that stuff and had the same question you did, is it safe or not? I have always felt it was not safe, but no one could tell me how to correct it.

    Thank you Dr. Kruse!

  7. Thanks for the welcome mat.. UM...toxic dumping.....yeah.. stayed home from work yesterday but the upside was I made a large pot of beef bone broth!! The ice was easy to take it was the visit from Mr Puki I could have done without. I am doing daily am face baths and will do the ice packs again tonight. Gonna work on upping fat and am getting my labs done Friday morning. Ceased all Crossfit ;-(

    Your FBG numbers like mine, oh well, we must continue on hopeful n desperate, LOL
  8. Destiny

    Destiny New Member

    If you are a girl, have your hormones checked out as well. My FBG did not go down until I started supplementing my estrogen.

  9. Hi Destiny! I am female and having it all done on Friday!! so excited. I am very sure there will be some kind of deficit, my whole life has been a mismatch, LOL
  10. can I just say again how excited I am to find others like me!! :) thanks for all the hope!
  11. CoolingWeb

    CoolingWeb New Member

    "Interestingly, a parallel neurocircuit is implicated in the mechanism that links hypothalamic leptin action to the control of hepatic insulin sensitivity, in which leptin-sensitive forebrain neurons regulate the activity of neurons in the NTS and adjacent dorsal motor nucleus of the vagus (DMX). Contained within the DMX are vagal motor neurons that supply the liver and other tissues, and their activity is tonically regulated by input from the NTS. The NTS, in turn, receives input from both afferent vagal fibers and from descending projections from the hypothalamus and other brain areas (Fig. 5)." http://physrev.physiology.org/content/91/2/389/F5.expansion.html

    From Leptin and the Central Nervous System Control of Glucose Metabolism http://physrev.physiology.org/content/91/2/389.full

    The same paper goes on to say: "A growing literature implicates cellular inflammation in the pathogenesis of obesity-associated metabolic impairment in peripheral tissues (85, 86, 170). Excess body adiposity has been associated with activation of macrophages and associated inflammation in a variety of peripheral tissues including WAT, liver, skeletal muscle, and the vasculature and eventually is accompanied by increased circulating plasma levels of proinflammatory cytokines (193, 207). Recent evidence suggests that consumption of a HF diet also induces inflammation in the hypothalamus, an effect that itself could favor weight gain by impairing the neuronal response to input from leptin and insulin (184). Consistent with this notion, rats fed a HF diet for 20-wk exhibit both leptin resistance and hypothalamic inflammation, as measured by elevated mRNA and protein levels of proinflammatory cytokines (tumor necrosis factor-α, IL-1β, and IL-6), resulting from activation of IKKβ and JNK-1 (45, 148, 211). Beyond these correlative observations, recent work has begun to assess whether hypothalamic inflammation is a cause of DIO, or is simply a consequence."

    It looks like HF (High Fat) diet causes all that above _in rats._ It is safe to believe that HC (high Carb) causes the same in hominids. We do not have rat metabolism.

    I understand why Dr. K is saying that all the previous metabolism related research has to be redone in cold. Can you imagine the cited paper researches then?

    Same link above: "VI. CONCLUDING REMARKS

    In conclusion, a large and growing literature supports the hypothesis that input to the CNS from afferent signals such as leptin is integrated with that from a variety of other hormonal and nutrient-related signals to coordinate efferent responses that control food intake, energy expenditure, hepatic insulin sensitivity, and glucose uptake in the service of energy and glucose homeostasis. Evidence of substantial overlap in the CNS circuits that regulate energy balance and those that regulate glucose metabolism raises the possibility that reduced secretion, sensing, or responsiveness to these afferent signals promotes both weight gain and insulin resistance. Therapies that target the CNS and restore sensitivity of neuronal circuits to key afferent signals have the potential to improve currently available treatments for obesity and diabetes.
    " Emphasizes added by me.

    Which is what the Leptin Rx of Dr. K has demonstrated as a _therapy._ I attest and many others.
    r />

    I can lose 1 Lb a night by eating at 4:00pm then sleep at 8:00pm and let the Leptin be sensed by the hypothalamus by 10:00-12:00pm. The cascading effects that follow make me lose about 1lbs a night during nights of deep sleep.

    CT is the other therapy proposed by Dr.K but I can not attest to it as of yet. I can not do the CT for 2 weeks at 55F for 45-60 minutes. :( I am seeing some benefits of swimming in "cold" (20C) waters like breaking through plateaus in fat lose, better body composition, increased AMPK due to the aerobic exercise.

    I just know that the mild CT I am doing is doing me good. I can feel it. But I still do not have the FBG numbers to prove it like the others who have on this thread.

    CT MORE. :)

  12. CoolingWeb

    CoolingWeb New Member

    Oh and of course check the papers from the http://paleohacks.com/questions/83492/leptin-and-pepck

    For the uninitiated, "The Quilt" comment is by Dr. K.

  13. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    The sad part is that this thread died on the vine and the people over there have no clue how important that enzyme linkage is to FBG. It is where Dawning phenomena comes from. Jeff did a great job bring it up
  14. Ray

    Ray New Member

    Cooling Web ...

    It appears I'm in the same boat as you. My fasting blood glucose has climbed into the 100 to 110 range (after a long spell in the 90s), and it is not related morning/afternoon time. I started IF about 1.5 years ago mostly following the fast 5 protocol. After about 6-8 months I added low carb, so I have been mostly fast 5 plus low carb for about 8 months. I experienced decent weight loss (about .5 pound per week) for about a year and then weight loss stalled this past December. If I eat a BAB (usually on a weekend and consisting of a 3 egg cheese omelet and 4 strips of bacon) my blood glucose will go from about 105 to 130. Also, if I include carbs after a fast (like a wine, cheese, & cracker type of indulgence) I also go from ~110 to ~130.

    I have been doing moderate CT for about 2 months, by maintaining body temperature just above the shiver threshold. Generally, I do this with an exposure to ~63*F water (either soak or shower) until shivering starts, air dry then use A/C or cold air exposure to stay just barely comfortable. I have done an experiment with a CT session to see what the effect on blood sugar was. Fasting, there was no change. With a 1 mile walk thrown in afterwards blood glucose dropped slightly (but not enough to be greater than the possible measurement error in the test strips).

    I keep hoping there is a problem with this batch of test strips, but I really think our livers just want to keep this glucose level for some reason.
  15. Shijin13

    Shijin13 Guest

    After reading this I'm now interested in seeing what my fbg is 1st thing in the am, then again before CT, then again following. Time to breakout my bgm.
  16. maggie

    maggie New Member

    Ray, I'm having the opposite effect of quite low bg, even in the a.m. It seems to be directly related to CT. When I CT at night, low reading in the a.m. I'm laying off CT now because of a kind of scary die-off response the other day, and I see the FBG number going up to their old levels (over 100). So for me at least it's a direct connection. I would encourage you to just keep trying. You might find yourself pleasantly surprised one a.m.

    P.S. my CT is pretty mild--water temps around 70 degrees, and not too long in the bath, plus cold showers.
  17. CoolingWeb

    CoolingWeb New Member

    Here is a nugget from comments of http://jackkruse.com/the-evolution-of-the-leptin-rx/ exchanged with Dr.K back in Feb/2012. I think they are relevant to this thread.


    208. avatar CoolingWeb Says:

    February 16th, 2012 at 11:39 pm

    Hello Dr. K, Thank you for all the great info you are laying out here. The science is what sets you apart. Please keep it in.

    Based on the science and logic you outline here, I am thinking if the cold thermogenesis is the way to go to increase Insulin Sensitivity to pre T2D levels? (Cure)

    If it is then you are on the verge of a huge breakthrough that will rock the Medical Establishment world wide.

    I read everything you wrote. It Took me 2 months. :D

    I spent months researching IR. You are the first to explain how IR starts. Were you able to find a scientific path to significantly reverse IR? How could someone be very Insulin Sensitive again? What are the signs?





    209. avatar Jack Says:

    February 16th, 2012 at 11:46 pm

    @Cooling web………Cold is the cure for diabetes…….that is precisely how evolution reverses it yearly in all eutherian mammals who hibernate. The reason humans get it……is because these pathways still remain in our DNA because there has not been enough time to adapt to what the neolithic human mind has created in our environment to our paleolithic genes detriment. Polar bears wake up after cold shreds their fats in cold………IR puts them to sleep…….to den because they get sluggish.


    211. avatar CoolingWeb Says:

    February 17th, 2012 at 1:10 am

    @Jack.. Is it the cold that is helping the metabolic pathways to be optimal? Or is it just helping shred the fat that contributes negatively to the metabolic process?

    Then you wrote:http://jackkruse.com/gnolls-com-opens-the-door-to-obesity-fight/ “My answer is Oh…..yes we do! It low intracellular magnesium levels that causes the genesis of insulin resistance peripherally. And we have known it for a long time but have done little in clinical medicine to treat it. This is why so few people know about it. Peripheral leptin and insulin resistance (at muscles and fat cells) occurs first for this to happen but the depletion of Magnesium always predates insulin resistance.”

    Based on personal observations, my readings here and elsewhere I was able to construct this sequence:

    ::Stress > Bad Nutrition > Obesity > Hepatic Problems > Hepatic Insulin Resistance > Liver Enlargement > Adipose and Muscle IR > High Trig and High BG

    I was able to shed the weight by going paleo. NO grains or sugar for 3 months now. I do strength training and HIIT.

    I am 6.2. I was 240lbs when diagnosed but now I am 215lbs. Body composition improved alot. Lots of energy and good recovery. Lost 6 inches around waist.

    FBG is 100. 1hr after meal What is the route to Optimal? What is missing?



    216. avatar Jack Says:

    February 17th, 2012 at 1:33 pm

    @Cooling its way cooler than that. You will see it soon. If your Fasting BG is 100 your liver is still LR! Its because leptin has not regained control of PEPCK. Go read my older blog Leptin Part Deux


    218. CoolingWeb Says:

    February 17th, 2012 at 2:47 pm

    @Jack .. You are a tease. LOL . This is so exciting. I can hardly wait.

    I did as told and reread Leptin Part Deux. I reread the Leptin Rx too. I am confused.

    I have all the signs of LS.

    I thought I had Insulin Resistance at the muscle level. I figured that the muscles lack the full uptake of the BG dumped by the liver in the morning. Hence the 100 Fasting BG.

    The Leptin Part deux does not tell how to get LS at the liver though. It just explains it. Is there a Leptin Rx for the liver?

    I am basically following the Leptin Rx to the T. I haven’t had a grain nor a starch in 3 months. Breakfast 50-70g protein. I eat twice a day unless I work out. I don’t have cravings what so ever. I have a healthy appetite tough. I learned about leaky gut from you Dr. K and added fermented veggies.

    I have been taking cold showers, 3-4 weekly, for 6 weeks now. http://gettingstronger.org/2010/03/cold-showers/

    I have seen a remarkable progress across all systems. I am not using my prescription glasses most of time. My thinning hair is making a noticeable comeback. The acid erosion signs in my teeth stopped. Very high Libido. Better breathing. Better brain function. I feel like I did when I was 12. It is indescribable.

    Everything is great except for the BG levels. They stay the same. 2.5 months and they just won’t get back to 80s or less.

    I don’t know what I am missing?




    222. avatar Jack Says:

    February 17th, 2012 at 7:27 pm

    @ cooling web………just stay on the tracks to optimal. The journey is the best part. I know…….i have traveled it and it is very sweet indeed.


    224. avatar CoolingWeb Says:

    February 18th, 2012 at 12:15 am

    @Jack .. Thank you for your kind words. It is a joy indeed.

    How is liver leptin resistance related to insulin resistance? What are best practices to improve the situation?



    225. avatar Jack Says:

    February 18th, 2012 at 8:06 am

    @Cooling liver LR means you can not handle the excess calories you take in so your live become fat filled. Your gut has a problem with foods you eat because of a change in FAS fatty acid synthetase……Diabetes cascading might begin in our gut. Remember the liver is part of the GUT!!!! When we are not able to create fatty acid synthase (FAS) in the gut IR is the usual result because of an uncoupling of Mg and ATP from the ATPase to make energy. This signaling error than gets magnified throughout the mammal system quite naturally. In fact our biochemical pathways make for its development quite easily because there are no inherit evolutionary designed breaks. I think this is the best evidence that DM is not a disease but a natural adaptation for some other reason in all mammals. Yes it is tied to FACTOR X!.

    FAS is an enzyme that is critical for the formation of lipids and is under controlled by insulin and by leptin. Patients suffering from diabetes generally experience abnormalities in the FAS enzymes people become resistant to insulin, as happens when they gain weight, FAS doesn’t work properly, which causes inflammation that, in turn, can lead to diabetes after enough time……there is a disconnect between Mg levels and ATP……as it worsens Insulin levels rise to cover the deficits……but can’t and the whole system become a fat storage machine, sugar burning machine.

    The real pathology generator here is that with chronicity this causes major amounts of inflammation to develop in the gut and this inflammation causes the classic hormonal disruption of T2D. Basically it destroys sex steroid hormones. It does some other stuff too but lets stick to fat here. In the adipocyte what happens? Remember my Leptin Part Deux blog I asked you to read…….here is the tie together……

    At the liver level something new happens though. Because muscles (muscle leptin resistance) can no longer use the calories partitioned to them they return to the liver. Leptin resistance at the liver also down regulates the LDL receptor in the liver. This allows the LDL particle to stay in the blood longer making it more susceptible to oxidation and disease.

    The liver responds by packaging this fuel into LDL particles to get rid of it. If the meal is high in carbs it makes small dense LDL. (SdLDL) If the calories are high in fat or protein the LDL is intermediate or large fluffy LDL.(ILDL or VLDL) SdLDL is the particle that causes many chronic diseases when it is present in excess chronically. It correlates best with heart disease and stroke risk. This is the most important thing to take away from a lipid panel. You want this number as close to zero as possible. sdLDL also causes high blood pressure and atherosclerosis because it damages the vascular endothelium (lining of artery) and the LDL particle is small and dense so it fits between the endothelial cells and deposited in the arterial wall to make it a lead pipe.

    Before it gets into the artery wall it usually becomes oxidized (rusted) because it is chemically very sensitive to chemicals that cause oxidation. (IL6, TNF alpha, and ROS are some of these) The large fluffy VLDL are not a problem because they can not fit in vessel walls so most go to our fat under the control of LPL and hormone sensitive lipase. (Estrogen and testosterone levels determine where on the body this fat goes and stays!) This is the real reason why andropause and menopause cause weight gain in specific parts of your body as you age. Your sex steroid status varies with the amount of inflammation present at the cellular level. Understand that the inflammatory chemicals from the fat are what cause this to happen over time.

    i hope this helps……..the Quilt is designed to string these concepts together for you……..you will be asked to make some inferences and leaps and many times I do not give those to you because our brains are designed to make these quantum leaps by evolutionary design. Take a look at Malcolm Gladewell’s book “Blink” to see it in action…….i do this so that you become trained to read my stuff and make these leaps. Research shows when people keep making these leaps they learn faster. So in essence I am performing brain surgery and mind control on my readers to help me help you change medicine to get you to Optimal. LOL I guess I just shared the secret sauce huh?


    I know you ll like the head freez. I did .

  18. Shijin13

    Shijin13 Guest

    Ok. Thoughts on this

    Fbg before CT 74 mg/dl 415 pm

    Fbg after CT 80 mg/dl 546 pm

    Lunch was ~ 1230-1300

    Dinner is in an hr & 30 min

    What do you think???
  19. maggie

    maggie New Member

    Nice numbers! There is a fairly large allowable error for meters and strips, so it might not be useful to try to interpret a six point difference.
  20. CoolingWeb

    CoolingWeb New Member

    Liver Heeling anyone?

    Liver Leptin Sensitivity Rx: Ver 0.3

    1- Eat Strict Paleo: Lots of sea food. Liver. Offal meats.

    2- Green Leafy vegies: If it t is green and leafy then it is IT.

    Cilantro: http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/benefits-of/cilantro

    3- Sulfur rich vegies: Broccoli to garlic and everything in between.

    4- Colored vegies and berries: purple, red,... rich in antioxidants

    (2, 3, and 4 are part of the Dr. Terry Whals diet)

    5- Curcumin +%2 Black Pepper: Huge amounts daily. Boiled to activate the good stuff.

    6- Cinnamon: Added to hot teas and coffee . Dont boil it

    7- Ginger: Avoid boiling or high heat ..

    8- Green tea: Lots and lots

    9- Black tea:

    10- Coffee: You can bullet proof it.

    11- Herbal teas: Camomile etc

    12- Dark Chocolate: %99 Cacao. I add it to coffee or curcumin/cinnamon/ginger tea.

    13- Omega 3: Krill oil. Fish oil.

    14- Bone broth: Yum Yum. Get your correct dose of minerals

    15- CT: as best you can . Recreate winter at the equator if you have to. Dr.K would say this is the most important.

    16- No snaking. Ever: Teach your liver to sustain you during food shortage.

    17- Circadian Rhythm: Eat 3-4 hours before sleep. Dark after sunset.

    18- Eggs: great Choline source.

    v 0.3 additions:

    19- SAMe: The Liver Super- Nutrient : S-adenosylmethionine

    20- Milk Thistle Tea:

    What else you got?

    Resveratrol? No wine. Supplement?


    Metformin? I used it a whole 10 days when I was diagnosed while I was switching to paleo. It gave me some mild hypos. But Dr.k mentioned it few times. "It activate the pathway"

    Leaky gut fixes?

    Help me get ver 0.4




    - http://www.naturalnews.com/029872_curcumin_cirrhosis.html

    - http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2010/11/sweet-truth-about-liver-and-egg-yolks.html

    - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2693878/ Heat-Solubilized Curcumin Should Be Considered in ClinicalTrials for Increasing Bioavailability

    - www.naturalnews.com/029872_curcumin_cirrhosis.html Black Pepper+Curcumin

    - http://www.livestrong.com/article/130831-detox-liver-naturally/ SAMe and Milk Thistle

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