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How much protein to eat; about the body only being able to use 20 grams of protein from a meal?

Discussion in 'Beginners Area' started by Dan2, Jun 14, 2020.

  1. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    I've read this repeated that only about 20 grams of protein is needed or even able to be used from a meal (within maybe 2-4 hours, is the idea that's repeated, I'm guessing).

     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
  2. primalmofo

    primalmofo Student Doctor

    20-30 g every 2-4 hours is the best way to absorb and assimilate the most protein (ie. bodybuilders)

    I think as long as you allow yourself time to digest, you can do more than 30g
     
  3. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    So people who do long intermittent fasting and eat one meal a day, all the food being eaten in say 2 hours -- 100+ grams of protein will still be digested, and it'll just take longer? Or maybe intermittent fasting makes a need for less protein per day? If so, how would that be better or worse to do for months or years compared to eating 20-30g several times a day? And if intermittent fasting doesn't make a need for less protein, 100 g of protein for a 200 lb adult isn't a lot; if a 200 lb person doing intermittent fasting were to eat 200 g of protein in 2 hours, would they still digest all that or would it be better some ways if they'd eaten ~30 grams 6 times throughout the day? (Just some things I've thought of recently that I haven't researched.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2021
    Glenn A likes this.
  4. primalmofo

    primalmofo Student Doctor

    I don't know the timing, but I'd assume if you ate one 100+ gram meal a day, you wouldn't assimilate every gram, but you'd probably be assimilating more protein than if you had 30g. I think 100g in 2 hours is too much, 200 definitely is. If you want to eat that much protein you would be better off having 2 meals close together as possible. How many hours are you trying to fast each day?
     
  5. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    I'm not doing intermittent fasting on purpose. Sometimes I feel like eating breakfast, sometimes not. I was just thinking about how lots of people say intermittent fasting is good for affecting hormones in ways that increase muscle mass, but also eating 20-30 g protein several times a day is good for maintaining muscle mass, so which is the better way to not only affect muscle mass but other things too, like hormones that affect other things, for example? And if intermittent fasting does change hormones in ways that make ~100-150 g of protein in one meal (for a 200 lb person) enough to maintain muscle mass, are there other ways to affect the hormones those ways (similar to intermittent fasting) so the person could also digest more total protein per day by eating several times and would that combination be better (in ways other than just maintaining muscle) than intermittent fasting with less protein digested per day?
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2021
  6. primalmofo

    primalmofo Student Doctor

    Try and think of the catabolic v anabolic states. It is a balance between the two. After around 4 hours no food you will go from anabolic to catabolic and may lose some muscle. That is why bodybuilders eat constantly. To build muscle and fast for the benefits increase the seesaw towards anabolism and go hard during catabolism
     
  7. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    About upper limit of protein per day



    21:30

    Masai male warrior diet daily:

    2 liters (67 oz) milk
    1.1 kg (2.4 lbs) meat
    50 ml of blood (that would have a few grams of protein that I'm not adding)

    65 g protein from the milk
    280 g protein from the meat (if it's 85% lean)
    Totals 345 g protein per day

    1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight is a common recommendation for athletes.
    The people eating this probably weighed 200-250 lbs or less. If they weighed 200 lbs, 350 grams of protein is 1.75 grams per pound of bodyweight. If they weighed 250 lbs, it's 1.4 g/lb.

    ____

    Kind of funny story at 27:11

    "Frederick Schwatka [and his crew] wanted to find what happened to a Royal Navy expedition of two ships and 129 men that went looking for the Northwest Passage. [Scottish surgeon and explorer] John Rae had found relics from that expedition and talked to the Inuit people who said the ships got trapped in the ice and the guys all died within two years of the ships being trapped in the ice. We don't know whether they died of food poisoning or scurvy, but they died eating their stored provisions in their ships while the aboriginal people around them were living hale and hearty lives. But [to the British it was] a completely different culture; the British Naval tradition would not let them embrace [the Inuit foods]."

    Either the Inuit didn't tell the whole story or the whole ship-full of the British were fatally racist.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
    JanSz likes this.
  8. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    upload_2020-7-26_10-59-40.png
     
    Sara Paez, Tfreeman and Dan2 like this.
  9. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    Studies of nutrition. The physique and health of two African tribes, by J. B. Orr and J. L. Gilks, 1931
    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003510108&view=1up&seq=28

    Screen shot 2020-07-26 at 12.52.57 PM.png

    Summary "book notice" article about the book
    https://sci-hub.tw/10.1001/jama.1931.02730200061030

    ____

    Kikuyu-Maasai Nutrition and Colonial Science: The Orr and Gilks Study in Late 1920s Kenya Revisited by Cynthia Brantley, 1997
    https://sci-hub.tw/10.2307/221546

    Screen shot 2020-07-26 at 1.04.11 PM.png

    Screen shot 2020-07-26 at 1.04.21 PM.png

    ____

    Towards an Objective Account of Nutrition and Health in Colonial Kenya: A Study of Stature in African Army Recruits and Civilians, 1880–1980 by Alexander Moradi, 2009
    https://sci-hub.tw/10.1017/s0022050709001107

    Screen shot 2020-07-26 at 12.59.27 PM.png

    Screen shot 2020-07-26 at 1.01.34 PM.png
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2020
    JanSz likes this.
  10. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    Something else funny, kind of related since the book is about an all-meat diet.

    Strong Medicine by Blake Donaldson, 1962
    https://justmeat.co/docs/strong-medicine-blake-donaldson.pdf

    On page 67 of the book, 87 of the pdf
    "Bread addiction is little different from that of alcohol or cocaine or heroin addiction, and sometimes it seems even more dangerous."
    If you can't quit bread cold turkey, at least wean yourself off with some heroin!

    page 79 of the pdf
    "Mrs. Blankenship was a fat young woman with two children."
    Hi! I'm a fat young woman.
    "... The patient had failed to lose weight while under the care of other physicians. A different and rather shocking approch was needed.
    'Dear Mrs. Blankenship:
    You have a diagnosis of:
    1) Simple obesity
    2) Nervousness
    ...Most women, and you are among them, only have two problems. Should they weight one hundred and thirty-six pounds dressed, or one hundred and thirty pounds dressed? You are in the one-hundred-and-thirty-six-pound class and I expect you to be there on the fourth day of September.
    ...Your husband, in many respects, seems to be a good man. I advise you to compete fiercely for his attentions, by regaining your looks. Nothing else is going to work. Bear in mind what happened in the Roman Senate many centuries ago. For two years the senators are supposed to have debated the question as to whether or not women had any brains at all.'"
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2020
    Jackie Beatty and JanSz like this.
  11. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    19:14 about why "rabbit starvation" happens when eating too little fat in proportion to protein

    26:43 about how to estimate upper protein limit

     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2021
  12. Glenn A

    Glenn A New Member

    Several nice questions here. To get a good set of answers, you might have to say what your objective is? Like is it to

    1. maximize muscle gain?,
    2. to have the best health day to day?
    3. or, possibly to have great longevity?

    I see a lot of the discussion so far, as focused on the Jerry Brainum video, regards a number of grams per meal of protein that will most effectively allow muscle gain (objective 1), and Brainum wants to clarify that the 20g figure refers to what's applied to muscle gain, not what is a limit to absorption in a meal.

    I got into reading about a dozen sources that might be great for body builders that also clarify what Brainum explains. Amazingly, I found that most of these web pages set up for body builders stressed that they thought that probably all protein consumed, regardless of meal size, would be absorbed.

    My research shows that this is not true. I don't have a source to show that the enzymes for breaking down protein in the small intestine are absolutely limited. To a large degree, the higher the protein amount in a meal, the longer it will remain in the small intestine to be digested. But there is a limit. There will come a time, possibly not until the next meal enters the stomach, but the time will come when a meal containing substantial protein will pass into the large intestine in spite of whether all protein is digested or not.

    This is a consideration if you are interested in your overall health (objective 2). It happens that studies show that protein managing to get into the large intestine can be bad for your health. In this link, you find the statement "Approximately 13 g of dietary proteins enter the colon daily". (Read the section on Gluten Metabolism in Humans):

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/topic...and-pharmaceutical-science/peptide-absorption

    So check it out regarding some relevance to your health based on protein that reaches the large intestine and colon.

    And here's a study on large intestine protein digestion that mentions "a doubling in faecal ammonia excretion when daily protein intake was increased from 63 to 136 g in volunteer feeding studies." It also explains some problems with high levels of ammonia in the gut:

    https://academic.oup.com/femsec/article/25/4/355/495669

    Here's an abstract on the relevance of protein that escapes to the colon with colorectal cancer.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11709869/

    Now as to longevity, there's a lot of articles showing up trying to relate high protein diets to a shortened lifespan. So much so that one gets the idea that one might want to get just enough protein to stay healthy, but certainly not excess. They don't talk about extremes of protein (totality of one's diet to the exclusion even of fats as described in the "rabbit starvation" video you provided. But there seems to be proof that excess protein, just as excess calories in general, can be hurtful to longevity.

    Then there's this consideration, that possibly it's just one or two of the amino acids that may be the culprets in a high protein diet:

    https://joshmitteldorf.scienceblog....tting-this-one-nutrient-make-you-live-longer/

    What other objectives may one have with respect to which we must consider protein intake? I've just brought up some consideration on 3 possible objectives.

    For my own needs, doing intermittent fasting, and focusing on longevity and avoiding excess protein meals to limit protein overflow to the colon, I limit protein intake to the 20-40 g range for each meal and I usually eat 2 or 3 such meals per day in an 8-10 hour window.
     
    John Schumacher and Dan2 like this.
  13. Hunterman1987

    Hunterman1987 New Member

    After spinal surgery, I could not return to training for a very long time and, to be honest, it was very difficult for me to return to sports because I had terrible pains after each training session and in the end I decided to start working on myself and my body ... I was advised try using using bacteriostatic water for injections which certainly made a great contribution to my training. I have bought all the substances and products from paradigmpeptides and am very pleased with their service. This is a very cool store and has a wide variety of products.
     
  14. Rohitstad

    Rohitstad New Member

    You just need to eat on the principle of a plate. There should be enough protein on the plate, like 20g. Slightly less fiber. And very few carbohydrates.
     
  15. Ditartyn

    Ditartyn New Member

    For your body to absorb protein, you should not load every meal with huge steaks. I learned a long time ago that your protein should be diverse. Eggs are a good source of protein, but there are also tofu, bean porridge, and bean soups. Plant-based protein is also protein, guys. And if you need protein to gain muscle mass, eat 30g for each meal. When I was bodybuilding, I made protein shakes and bought ligandrol. This made the training very effective. The Best place to buy LGD 4033 Ligandrol is an online website I can share with you. Reply to my comment or highlight my nickname so I can see that you are interested.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2022
  16. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    I do use bacteriostatic water for injections
    but I use it to dissolve powder.
    The powder is what is supposed to do XYZ, the water just helps in delivering the load to subQ space.

    It looks to me like you are ascribing some healing properties to the water used in injections.

    You may want to provide some more details.

    ..
     
  17. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    @JanSz
    I was reading this article yesterday at about the same time you were writing that post.

    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/progesterone-deceptions.shtml

    "By 1942, Hans Selye had demonstrated that natural steroids retain their activity when administered orally. But every drug company with a steroid patent had an obvious interest in having the public believe that there is a reason that the natural steroids cannot be conveniently used. The doctrine that natural steroids are destroyed by stomach acid appeared, was promoted, and was accepted--without any supporting evidence. In the manufacture of progesterone, the precursor steroid is boiled in hydrochloric acid to free it from its glucose residue. No one seriously believed that stomach acid hurts progesterone, except the public--and the doctors, who had seen the claim in their medical journals, and had heard it from drug salesmen.

    The myth stopped the use of the cheap tablets of progesterone, as tablets of the synthetic 'progestins' came on the market, at a much higher price. Doctors who insisted on using real progesterone were forced to buy it in an injectable form. As a result, solubility became an issue. Progesterone is extremely insoluble in water, and, though it is vastly more soluble in vegetable oil than in water, it does not stay in solution at room temperature even at the low concentration of 1 part in 1000 parts of a typical vegetable oil.

    When people speak of an allergy to progesterone (or even to penicillin) they generally are not aware of the presence of a very toxic solvent.(5) For a time, progesterone was often sold dissolved in benzyl benzoate. The Physician's Desk Reference warned of possible allergic reactions to progesterone. Now, it is supposedly sold dissolved in vegetable oil, with about 10% benzyl alcohol as--supposedly--a 'bacteriostatic agent.'

    Bacteriostatic water contains 0.9% to 1.9% benzyl alcohol, and can irreversibly harm nerves. (6,7) Its use in hospitals killed thousands of babies. Awareness of benzyl alcohol's toxicity goes back to 1918 at least; it was proposed as an effective insecticide, and was found to be toxic to many animal systems. The safe systemic dose (7) is exceeded with an injection of 150 mg. of progesterone, yet the local concentration is far higher. It can cause a severe reaction even when used at a lower concentration, in bacteriostatic water. (5)"

    5. J. A. Grant, et aI., New England Journal of Medicine 306(2): 108, 1982, Unsuspected benzyl alcohol hypersensitivity.

    https://libgen.is/scimag/?q=Unsuspected+benzyl+alcohol+hypersensitivity
     
  18. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Progesterone in pills = prometrium
    --------------------------------------------
    How to convince (my) enzyme to convert cholesterol to pregnenolone?
    My pregnenolone is always low.
    -----------------------------------------------
    I supplement testosterone with Androgel since about 2000.
    That suppresses LH & FSH.
    Initially that resulted in rather complete suppression of testicles and scrotum.
    I use bacteriostatic water to dissolve HCG powder.
    HCG being similar to LH eventually restored scrotum and testicles.

    -------------------------------------------------
    upload_2022-11-23_15-59-33.png

    upload_2022-11-23_15-55-22.png
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2022
  19. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    Oh. Okay, yeah, that's a pretty good tradeoff. I was thinking about peptides being in bacteriostatic water when I was thinking that might be helpful.
     
  20. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Any ideas about the other topic?
    --
    How to convince (my) enzyme to convert cholesterol to pregnenolone?
    My pregnenolone is always low.

    ................
     

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