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Help Clearing Lactic Acid

Discussion in 'Optimal Fitness' started by persistence, May 23, 2014.

  1. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    I have always been interested in glucosamine's use with cancer patients and in those wishing to extend lifespan: The mechanism by which D-Glucosamine inhibits glycolysis is by inhibiting hexokinase (or the liver analog, glucokinase). This impairs glucose metabolism and results in the cell “switching” over to amino acid metabolism to produce energy. Thus D-Glucosamine is a “metabolic switch” that converts “Warburg-type metabolism” in the cell (i.e. aerobic glycolysis in the presence of adequate oxygen) over to “protein metabolism”. 100 microM of Glc-N results in a 43% inhibition of glucose oxidation. I know of no studies however that shows whether we can get this effect from oral doses of the supplement.
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2015
  2. persistence

    persistence New Member

    This is a point I still do not understand. Everyone makes a big deal that burning fat in aerobic metabolism will create 130 ATP versus 36 ATP for glucose. Unfortunately, that omits the fact that producing those 130 ATP for fat requires 23 oxygen (O2) versus only 6 O2 to create the 36 ATP from glucose! The math on that seems to suggest burning fat is actually less efficient. Glucose will produce 6 ATP for each O2 consumed. Fat to contrast only supplies 130/23 = 5.7 ATP per O2 consumed. Fat looks less efficient than glucose for aerobic metabolism, assuming you are avoiding anaerobic glycolysis and are properly using aerobic metabolism.

    Reasons to prefer fat:

    1) You don't have to eat anything to get lots of energy since there is plenty of fat stored on most bodies.
    2) You avoid a glucose and insulin spike
    3) You put the body into a fat burning mode for most of the day instead of a fat storage mode, which for some people would be a major health benefit

    Those might be great reasons to prefer fat, but they have nothing to do with efficiency.

    And I don't see how overall oxidation is decreased when fat is requiring slightly more oxygen per ATP produced than glucose.
  3. you breathe 33,000 times a day.
    you unfold more protein binding sites to water per mol metabolised.
    remember water is the real energy source. all you wanna do with food substrates is unfold proteins.
  4. persistence

    persistence New Member

    I'm not sophisticated enough with biochemistry to understand your point. We were talking about the oxidative efficiency of fat versus glucose, in aerobic metabolism. I don't understand what folding proteins has to do with that?
  5. what do food substrates really do? the make ATP to unfold proteins...

    so the efficiency for energy production really boils down to how many binding sites are touching the (hopefully) ever present water battery....this is what energises the cell...

    if we only wanna talk about the efficiency of one step in the chain, maybe you are right, but ultimately fat oxidation leads to more thermodynamic efficiency at the end point
  6. that would explain the effects on joint pain in those with semi decent diets, and why those who are glycated to high hell rarely see an effect
    rlee314 likes this.
  7. René Borg

    René Borg New Member

    This is an interesting analogy and one I think I have to write out in front of me. Reminds me of the old days when I studied business and we looked at the bottlenecks in the manufacturing lines.

    what would be interesting to understand is whether the 'local' efficiency of the anaerobic metabolism becomes a critical bottleneck in very high intensity exercise , such as running a 1500m race which would put you well over 100% of your VO2max and induce severe acidosis and oxygen debt), even in a person whose overall system is highly efficient (i.e. able to unfold proteins like crazy OVERALL). Not sure I understand the end-to-end process well enough to make that assessment but the answer will be critical in whether we will ever achieve world records in 'shorter' distances in endurance events in people living 100% optimal. (the answer should intuitively be yes, but understanding the mechanism before we prove the result - which will take many years - would be a big step forward in championing this approach).
    Josh (Paleo Osteo) likes this.
  8. René Borg

    René Borg New Member

    Josh, it would be interesting to get a lactate measurement test off you doing a test to failure - especially if compared to previous tests done before. Have you noticed any difference in extensive intense exercise (say high intensity work lasting continuously for around 2- to 11 minutes?)
  9. yes mate the main workpieces i noticed the phenomenon occuring the most are continuous sprint up very long gradual climb through a golfcourse, and high intensity ice skating or inline skating (hockey background) at maximal pace around the rink for as many laps as possible.
    there appeared to be a "fatigue" of t he quads complex with the latter but it did not have the typical lactic acid "burn"
  10. might it then also be beneficial as a short stop for diabetes whilst we fix the circadian mismatches and dietary blue light intake?
  11. René Borg

    René Borg New Member

    I think that is closing in on an observation that each one of us could test. The detractors of all this will say that muscular fatigue happens before metabolic fatigue (to use a short-hand) because the body cannot produce as much power as quickly without the full force of the glycolytic pathway behind it. I know why they are asking because they have seen these examples in LCHF and 'ketosis' done wrong -> i.e. the athlete basically conks earlier than normal, or at a lower speed. The athlete doesn't feel the lactate build-up and 'burn' but they feel a strange sense of fatigue and 'powerlessness' in the legs.

    If I had my own laboratory, what I'd like to do is perform a longitudinal study Failing that we can only continue to do what we are doing a the moment: create race winners. My 'partner in crime' in my first business (ChampionsEverywhere), Jason Kehoe moved over onto a more optimal protocol this year having dabbled with 'paleo' for years. He's also taken MovNat 'cross-training' (as well as Winter gymnastics) and biomechanical reprogramming to an extreme. The results this year were very positive: after 'being the bridesmaid' in the Irish Mountain Running Championship for a number of years, we managed to coach Jason to victory in this years series. His improved recovery in particular was a big factor as carrying niggling injuries from race to race last year was part of his undoing. This was achieved in races that are very intense (10-12 km rough mountain with 800-1100m ascents). Some will look at that and say 'that's still quite long' but the events generally finish within 90 minutes and heart rates will easily go into the 'red zone' on the steep descents for long periods. Yet it was done on a fat-adapted diet (albeit with carb backloading - so main carb proportion after the races and after hard workouts during training).

    Our friend, Barry, well known on these forums, has been leading the way as well with his recent Ultra victories but people will throw arguments against him such as 'works fine for ultra-jogging but the 2-hour marathon barrier will never be broken that way etc.'. So those of us in the optimal community who are sports coaches need to create some champions at the sub-Ultra distances to really begin to convince the mainstream, I think.

    The question I have been pondering since reading 'Lights Out' is this: if the 'Winter metabolism' is tilted towards fat and the body's expectation of winter is long hours of sleep and less regular activity, whereas summer metabolism is ramped more towards carbs to allow for lots of fighting, hunting and mating, would this suggest to us that the 'summer metabolism' may be slightly more effective for the high-intensity sustained efforts (because these are 'summer' activities). There's a certain coaching wisdom at play already that may confirm this (i.e. the great coaches of the 1950ies onwards set the precedent that we do longer and slower work, and race the slower cross-country races, in Winter whereas track and other fast racing is done in summer).

    So would the 'summer hunter gatherer eating more carbs and living in the sun always beat the eskimo living in winter conditions over a 5000m race if all other things were equal?'
  12. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    glycation is a sign of AM UV light deficit.
    rlee314 likes this.
  13. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Muscle fatigue goes away with UV AM light Rene........because of what is buried in Ubi 24. PGC-1 alpha pathways are activated and select SM fibers. If the UV light is within the system muscle won't fatigue. This is why FM is also a disease of UV deficits. In these cases iron levels in RBC are low and they never absorb enough UV via their RBC's because porphyrins are not there in the deep skin to get it and deliver it to muscle. Moreover, Iron is co factor in dopamine synthesis.......and this is required in the PGC-1 alpha pathways for muscles...........this is why restless leg appears with many sleep disorders too and ties back to Josh's breathing statement. O2 is the terminal electron acceptor to increase pull on ETC........when UV is absent there is nothing to pull because flow is bad. When flow is bad muscles can do nothing
    rlee314, René Borg and Martin like this.
  14. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Lack of AM UV inhibits production of T3 which downshifts production of all hormones downstream of pregnenolone. Muscles need T3 to grow too. With out UV you also can't make T or E or increase RBC mass to harvest AM UV even if you change things. These AM details in CT 7 are critical to get right.
    rlee314, RobH, René Borg and 2 others like this.
  15. Jill1

    Jill1 New Member

    how would disorders such as hemochromatosis effect this ? Since there isn't a cure for this disorder - when then ?

  16. by evolutionary design of course, switching off energetically expensive hormone synthesis when it is down time/hibernation time and the season for uncoupling. when the cycle comes back around the organism switches back, provided they are in a natural environment, not an EMF shit hole :)
  17. René Borg

    René Borg New Member

    Thanks Jack, will reread CT 7 and Ubi 24 with this discussion in mind and see if I 'get it' :)
  18. Joe Gavin

    Joe Gavin Face Everything And Rise

    One thing I noticed this summer with being seafood keto and getting morning sun: I play old man beer league softball and by choice haven't exercised at all while doing this protocol. I found that I was rarely ever sore or wiped out after playing tournaments in high heat and humidity.
    Also, I participated in a Crossfit benefit for a local kid. 1000 meter row, 23 burpees, , 35 yard wobble/sprint, and then drag a weighted sled back 35 yards. Did it in about 6 minutes. Best part is I recovered in about 2 minutes. Wind/breathing was good the whole time. Meanwhile the 18 year old ripped up kid next to me was dead for at least 15. And I did it faster than him.
    Cool shit.
    RobH likes this.

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