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Help Clearing Lactic Acid

Discussion in 'Optimal Fitness' started by persistence, May 23, 2014.

  1. persistence

    persistence New Member

    I apparently have a problem clearing lactic acid, and after intense exercise it is causing lactic acidosis (metabolic acidosis complete with the full on compensatory respiratory alkalosis and deep heavy breathing to clear CO2 rapidly).

    Are there any substances we can take to accelerate the clearance of lactic acid?

    I have read that sodium bicarbonate can improve clearance by neutralizing acid and making the serum more alkaline.

    I have read that apple cider vinegar can also help clear lactic acid by supporting the citric acid cycle and metabolizing to oxaloacetic acid.

    I have no idea if either of these work, what the right doses are, or what the long-term effects might be.

    I would appreciate any insights or additional ideas.
  2. bionaut

    bionaut New Member

  3. persistence

    persistence New Member

    Since I cannot respond inside of the Ask Jack discussion group, what is "IF" as a prep step for cold therapy?

    Is there some kind of linear benefit with colder water; in other words will 70 degrees show some benefit, 60 degrees more benefit, down to 50 degrees? Toying with the idea of a portable lap swimming pool and just let the water cool overnight to 65 degrees or so and then attempt a morning swim in that water.
  4. bionaut

    bionaut New Member

    Probably intemittent fasting. Water at 55 degrees becomes paramagnetic amplifying your magnetic sense. The cold will work out your mito causing them to generate infrared and probably aid in the ability to use thr lactate as fuel.
  5. Albert83BCN

    Albert83BCN New Member

    Yep sodium bicarbonate has been used by athletes to improve performance in power-endurance events by acting as a buffer for the H+ ions that result from lactate build-up, I always thought about doing an N=1 to look how well it might work on a race but it's known to cause a lot of digestive distress so I never messed with it, but seems to be tolerable if you split dose 4x a day or so... since I do not engage that much in endurance events anymore I lost interest on it...
  6. persistence

    persistence New Member

    Well, I discovered the hard way that when you swallow the bicarbonate, then follow on by swallowing the vinegar, you basically create a small volcano. Might make a good party trick. :) Not recommended for daily use.
    Josh likes this.
  7. persistence

    persistence New Member

    This Fletcher place you found in the UK looks amazing. I would love to have a resource like that locally.
  8. Inger

    Inger Silver

    What if it is your body trying to tell you something.....

    maybe it is not so good to do intense exercise before you have healed?
    rlee314 likes this.
  9. persistence

    persistence New Member

    Well, the body is definitely sending a message. But I'm not sure what that message is. Why don't I clear lactic acid after even mild exercise? Is it a mitochondrial disease/deficiency?

    At this point I don't know how to heal, because I don't know what the actual disease is or how to treat it. Using bicarbonates to neutralize the lactic acid is treating the symptom.

    I don't think anyone would look at me currently and say I over exercise. I might walk gently once a day, and maybe do weight workout once a week. I'm pretty far away from being able to do intense exercise.
  10. Josh

    Josh Gold

    Poor redox and methylation pathway issues tied to redox and possibly SNP's. Any inflammatory driver exacerbates this and perpetuates it....Good to have a practitioner to review these things with....Yasko's work is accessible, especially her new "Feel Good Nutrigenomics". Dr.Stewart's videos are clear as well. Unfortunately healing can be two steps back before moving forward so to speak....Do not discount EMF as I recall you are in business for yourself and need to use technology with regularity...
  11. persistence

    persistence New Member

    My BUN/Creatine ratios are pretty decent so probably not redox. That ratio seems to go between about eight and 10.

    Methylation is interesting, because I do have elevated homocysteine at 14, but my other inflammatory markers are almost at zero. That sort of suggests potential genetic issues, so I am getting the 23andme test done, and I may have one of the other MTHFR tests done in the short term as well since 23andme takes so long to process.

    My EMF is probably not great, but I think that is probably additive not causative. The inability to clear lactic acid after exercise is something pretty specific. I'm wondering if I have had this as a genetic lifelong inefficiency, and only now in my over-40 old age did it reach some threshold that became toxic.

    Assuming I wanted to pursue the idea that this could be a mitochondrial genetic inefficiency or disease, who would one even see about that? What medical specialization deals with that?
  12. Josh

    Josh Gold

    A story....

    My wife massages people 6 hours per day 4-5 days per week. Over the last months, her legs have begun to cramp and have affected her movement and quality of life. I often asked her if she took the magnesium we routinely supplement with or an epsom salt bath. I watched helplessly as she continued to suffer from episodes of cramping. I am her primary care person. I reviewed and reviewed...finally, I remembered that while Magnesium Glycinate seemed to work for her in the past for muscle issues, I had not checked if perhaps these primarily muscular issues might instead require something such as magnesium malate which is more muscle specific. Sure enough, I muscle tested her and found that of Mg Glycinate, Orotate, Malate and Threonate,; only the malate had an effect on the leg muscles involved. 20 minutes after taking a dose of 600mg of MG Malate (4 xNOW 1000mg containing 150mg elemental Mg Malate), her leg pain and cramps went away. I have had similar s/sx's and only the malate worked.

    Of course there must be a mechanism or mechanisms responsible for this and it will hurt my head to explain it for myself. As I recall the are upwards of 150 forms of magnesium or was it 600? commonly used in the body....

    Have you ruled this out???
    rlee314 likes this.
  13. persistence

    persistence New Member

    I'm taking 200 mg of Magnesium (by dose not weight) in morning in the form of malate and 200 mg of Magnesium at night in mixed form of glycinate, lysinate, and chelate. Sometimes I reverse the order as well. I tried taking 400 mg doses of the Malate, but it doesn't really reverse the basic syndrome.

    Based on the fact that the oral bicarbonates seem to act quickly to clear the muscle fatigue, I'm still going on the thought that this is an alkaline (bicarbonate) at least partly neutralizing an acid (maybe lactic acid in muscle). And what I am feeling is not a cramp. What I feel is an inability to generate energy in the muscle. I think there is a big difference between muscular cramping and fatigue.
  14. Josh

    Josh Gold

    I agree on the difference between fatigue and cramping. However, when people have poor redox, they often come together...The bicarbonate has an immediate and typically temporary effect on a broad range of things...I would not consider it diagnostic....Without the right cofactors and right dose of magnesium for a given N=1, it often dose not do much for symptoms such as cramping and fatigue.......
  15. persistence

    persistence New Member

    As for dosing of Magnesium, I was concerned that if I took much more than 400 to 600 mg of Magnesium (by dose not weight) each day, that I risk screwing up my Calcium, since typically Magnesium and Calcium interact, and too much Magnesium can lower your Calcium. I don't want to supplement Calcium since it is poorly absorbed and is associated with increased risk of death (typically from arterial calcifications).

    I guess in a perfect world I would add some Magnesium Bicarbonate in together with an electrolyte solution, but dosing gets tricky.

    What I would like to do is have most of the bicarbonate start to come from potassium bicarbonate and end up getting maybe 4 grams a day of potassium from potassium bicarbonate and maybe 1/2 to 1 gram of sodium from sodium bicarbonate. Most of us get too little potassium and too much sodium, and the paleolithic balance was about 16 to 1 potassium to sodium. So this should provide some benefit from additional potassium as well as allowing the bicarbonate to do whatever it is doing.

    I have read that potassium bicarbonate can injure the intestinal lining too, so have to tread carefully on that.

    And I agree the bicarbonate is treating a symptom only; it's not a cure or even a diagnosis.
  16. Josh

    Josh Gold

    I do not see people on anything close to the epi-paleo diet needing potassium supplementation....stoichiometric analysis of electrolyte needs ignores the dynamic nature of a biological system under varied stress. In my experience, only endurance athletes need to give a lot of attention to electrolytes unless there diet and COE's are way way off....
    rlee314 likes this.
  17. Josh

    Josh Gold

    "Stoichiometric"...big word...I think I remember what it means....probably is correct to use it here, but not necessary...it is rough with biology because there is dissosiation based on COE's, utilization based on COE's...amazing we are not all amoebas....
  18. persistence

    persistence New Member

    I think anyone on epi-paleo probably at least gets close to the RDA for potassium near 5 grams per day. If I ate 100 grams (by weight) of all of the following top-10-potassium foods, I would still only be around 5 grams of potassium per day:


    I don't believe that a typical epi-paleo dieter gets anything close to the 11 grams of potassium that a paleolithic diet delivered. S0 I see the supplementation of an additional 4 grams of potassium per day as being relatively benign, and as a worst case your body will not use it. My guess is it would be very healthful. I've also read that potassium bicarbonate is one of the most bioavailable forms of potassium. This potassium discussion is - by the way - very interesting, and I wish people would address it with robust calculations more often.

    On the other hand, getting large doses of sodium every day (> 5 grams) is probably not a good thing to do, even on a diuretic low carb diet. I cannot come up with a good reason to not keep my potassium to sodium supplementation ratio in a potassium-weighted balance. If you are going to take bicarbonates every day, why push your luck with a massive sodium overdose (every 1/2 teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate delivers a full 600 mg of sodium).

    What is COE?

    I would agree something is way off. The question has always been how to get a diagnosis of what. At some point you can read every health tip in every blog, and you become just a random number generator trying to find anything that makes a difference. At this point I am going to start seeing functional medicine doctors and hope that one of those finds something that suggests a cause.
    Last edited: May 26, 2014
  19. Josh

    Josh Gold

    COE=conditions of existence
  20. Josh

    Josh Gold

    Note high potassium content of seaweed that Dr. Kruse recommends be added to any meat in cooking and or as part of the meal. Cruciferous vegetables and algae as well. Nightshades are cautionary for people with chronic inflammation. Tree nuts are allowed for most people.

    Review Gerson who researched 100's of potassium salts to find ones that actually got into the cell...result=potassium acetate, potassium gluconate and mono-potassium phosphate in combination sipped throughout the day in water between vegetable juices=structured water
    Last edited: May 26, 2014
    rlee314 likes this.

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