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Gout.....what to make of it?

Discussion in 'Educating Doctors' started by Jack Kruse, Jan 21, 2019.

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  1. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Most docs blame gout on booze and high protein diet due to purine biosynthesis. Is this wise or is it dogma that needs to die? Could it be that people who spend time indoors and not in the sun have a much higher risk for high uric acid and gout? Consider this: A High-Protein Atkins Diet Reduced Uric Acid in this Study below. What else should you know about uric acid?
    Most people have no idea what the effect of sunlight exposure and aging on skin surface lipids and urate really are.
    Free fatty acids (FFA), squalene, squalene hydroperoxide, and uric acid in the methanol extracts from human skin surface can be measured during bio-hacks.
    What might you find? Sunlight raises uric acid naturally for a reason.
    Levels of FFA and squalene are significantly lower in people with higher heteroplasmy rates (older)than in the younger cohorts with low heteroplasmy rates. If you live indoors your heteroplasmy rate is INCREASED no matter your age.
    Sunlight exposure for 90 minutes has been shown in papers not change levels of FFA and squalene, or FFA composition of the human skin. However, squalene hydroperoxide increased by 60-fold in sunlight, suggesting that hydroperoxide is produced by singlet oxygen radicals. In sunlight, uric acid increased by two-fold, which tells us it is AN adaptive response against photo-oxidative stress. Why? Uric acid is a good scavenger of singlet oxygen and oxygen radicals.
    So, gout is likely related to indoor living and a boat load of free radicals from the blue light hazard (both types) being made from melanopsin dysfunction. So eat your protein and meats etc.........
    Get outside.
    Avoid gout.
    It is not what we've been told.
    This also explains why many cases of gout do not correlate with plasma uric acid levels clinically.
  2. JMO

    JMO Gold

    Thanks! DH had a gout flare the day we arrived in Mexico (never had one before) and didn't improve till the day we came back. Hobbled thru airports with sandals as the only shoe that fit. We could use more sun...
  3. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Other than gout Dr David Perlmutter sees a major correlation between high uric acid and Alzheimer's, also Parkinson's.
    Excessive fructose is the major reason for excessive Uric Acid
    Fructose comes mainly from the food we eat but can also be produced by our bodies.

    Any comments @Jack Kruse

    Aging is Not a Disease, Damn It! | Page 28 | Jack Kruse Optimal Health Forum

    Aging is Not a Disease, Damn It! | Page 28 | Jack Kruse Optimal Health Forum
    Martha Ray likes this.
  4. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK New Member

    One of the interesting things for me is that someone could eat a fructose free diet, but if they eat high glycemic carbs, the hit of carbs on the liver causes the body to make fructose, which doesn't happen with slow release low glycemic carbs eaten in moderate amounts. That's a potential link between both high protein Atkins and the lower protein WFPB diet, (despite the WFPB diet being high in deuterium, and includes whole fruits). I'm beginning to think that fructose as an alarm signalling molecule is as (or more) important than deuterium ....

    The other interesting thing is the salt concentration in the blood angle - even mild dehydration triggers endogenous fructose production. Richard J Johnson in his book Nature wants us to be fat also calls vasopressin The Fat Hormone because of its links to gaining fat as a survival mechanism against thirst (camels hump, desert animals that store fat in their tails, salt water animals such as whales and seals who need a source of unsalted water as well as fat padding against the cold etc).
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  5. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    A multitude of variables.
    Trust but verify.
    There is a variety of good-sounding hypotheses.
    There are a variety of bodies living in a variety of environments.

    I checked my uric acid=3.7 so much less than the 5.5 recommended by dr Perlmutter who is happy with his 4.7.
    So, if I do not change my lifestyle, my Uric acid appears to be under control.
    Different story with a guy nearby, he already has gout, and his father (my age) seems to be going toward dementia.
    And especially my wonderful neighbor, hi is ok, but a couple of years ago both of his parents died of Alzheimer's.

    Since Jack following dr Boros, started on deuterium in Nov 2017, shortly after I went on 100% DDW-25.
    Eventually, dr Boros was recommended D body level somewhere around 120ppm.
    I did not listen to that until when he posted a study on high deuterium levels in tendons.
    I drink now 3 bottles of DDW-25 and one bottle of 150ppm (D/H).
    Maybe I should even go for a half and half.

    or antidiuretic hormone (ADH) or arginine vasopressin (AVP)
    Looks like nobody is really checking it.
    But dr Boros is saying that he sees people with mostly equal about 1 when it should be higher, about 2 or more.
    Going by the camel analogy, I will not be surprised when eventually a higher body's fat content will be in recommendations.

    .. upload_2022-4-15_8-3-27.png
  6. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK New Member

    In his book Dr Johnson talks about how they measured the levels of uric acid in monkeys and apes at San Diego Zoo, and they found uric acid levels were low at 1-2mg/dL in primates that expressed the uricase gene and that they were modestly higher in great apes that lacked it at 3-4 mg/dL. But fuelling the human brain in times of adversity may make that a minimum, not something to aspire to everywhere. There had been a study done on the Yanomami, hunter gatherers in the Amazon, whose diet consisted of plants such as plantains and tubers, and wild game. His team got hold of blood samples from the expedition and found that the Yanomani's uric acid level was around 3 mg/dL whereas the members of the visiting expedition team had levels of 5 or over. But if I think of the environment they live in reference to potential famine/cold exposure, with would need to carry less additional fat than say someone living further north. 5.5 might be a reasonable figure based on context (and seasonal eating and/or exposure to strong sunlight as Jack mentioned), and having a little extra padding may be protective in old age during say an infection. From the charts in the drop acid book by Dr Perlmutter on the relationship of uric acid to BMI, waist circumference and obstructive sleep apnea in diabetes, 5.5 is probably top end for someone living an indoor existence, and/or not experiencing winter.

    Bears going into hibernation eat loads of berries .... they are high in fructose but the riper they get the lower in vitamin C they become ... vitamin C increases urinary excretion of uric acid, and decreases its reabsorption through the kidney, so the high fructose stimulates appetite and they gain masses of weight. The fructose plus vitamin C signal is different to the fructose with no vitamin C signal ... so humans needing to take in (or not) vitamin C through diet had potential survival advantages.

    Interesting rabbit hole. :D
    JanSz likes this.
  7. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Sue-UK said:
    little extra padding may be protective in old age during say an infection.
    Even better to not get old, or simulating that by tending to:
    Lactobacillus Reuteri

    Aging is Not a Disease, Damn It! | Page 28 | Jack Kruse Optimal Health Forum


  8. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK New Member

    I think the yoghurt part is important .... something in it as food for the L Reuteri? Interactions with or regulation of other bacteria? Any post biotics produced from either the reuteri or any other species it regulates?

    Role of Lactobacillus reuteri in Human Health and Diseases

    A rabbit hole I'm going down is spermidine, but I don't know that L reuteri produces spermidine as a post biotic. It seems streptococcus is a likely candidate.

    Spermidine-induced recovery of human dermal structure and barrier function by skin microbiome
    "Streptococcus-secreted spermidine"

    L Reuteri is used in cheddar cheese production, as is streptococcus thermophilus (and other streptococcus). Fresh cheddar contains about 95 mg of spermidine per kg, whereas cheddar that has aged for 12 months has double that.
  9. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Clarification about yoghurt.
    Lactobacillus Reuteri (in super large amounts) is already there.

    It is not the yoghurt that one would buy commonly in the store.
    It is a yoghurt especially made, usually made by the user of it.
    Please review the post, link to which I posted.
  10. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK New Member

    I did and I watched the video. :)

    In one of his videos Dr Davis mentions the Yanomani and the Hadza still having L reuteri, presumably being nourished on an ongoing basis by the prebiotics in the tubers they eat. In his book Eat to Beat Disease William Li has fermented dairy and sourdough bread as sources of L reuteri. The bread is obviously cooked, yet still has benefit even though presumably has no live bacteria, and even the fermented dairy Dr Li mentions (or the l reuteri yoghurt) still has to pass any living bacteria through the stomach acid.

    The sourdough bread is probably a source of l reuteri as paraprobiotics and post biotics rather than probiotics.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar... recurrent,or topically) in adequate amounts,
    Paraprobiotics: A New Perspective for Functional Foods and Nutraceuticals

    If a probiotic has been made an "inactivated paraprobiotic" rather than one that has been destroyed, its then whether light can reactivate it, or whether a specific frequency of light can stimulate any remaining live ones to start multiplying.

    "Photobiomics”: Can Light, Including Photobiomodulation, Alter the Microbiome?

    (in mice..)
    "Recent preliminary work from our laboratory (unpublished) has also indicated that changes in the human (quasimetabolic syndrome) microbiome occur after treatment with PBM, including increases in Akkermansia muciniphila, Bifidobacterium sp., and Faecalibacterium sp., all recognized as correlated with a healthy microbiome, and decreases in the Firmicutes:Bacteroides ratio, proposed as an indicator of gut health."

    JanSz likes this.
  11. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Words have meanings, (or at least connotations).
    For me, sourdough bread means:
    sourdough bread that is made exclusively from whole grain rye flour (and no other "improvements").
    My father made it. Delicious.
    These days I see the bread with labels: rye bread, further down the labels says: 100% wheat flour, and some smell of rye.
    Especially on this board, we should not eat any wheat.
    I always wondered about rye.

    Another chapter is: The sourdough sources, its history, locality, and age.

    Last edited: Apr 19, 2022
  12. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Like the Yanomami tribe from Venezuela, the Hadza are a tribe of hunter-gatherers with a lifestyle from a bygone age.
    The Hadza, or Hadzabe, are a Tanzanian indigenous ethnic group mostly based in southwest Karatu District of Arusha Region. They live around Lake Eyasi in the central Rift Valley and in the neighboring Serengeti Plateau. There are, as of 2015, between 1,200 and 1,300 Hadza people living in Tanzania, however only around 400 Hadza still survive exclusively based on the traditional means of foraging. Additionally, the increasing impact of tourism and encroaching pastoralists pose serious threats to the continuation of their traditional way of life.
  13. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK New Member

    I think the teaching developed to that we should be able to eat anything if we live in tune with our natural environment, i.e. shit off a shingle ....

    According to William Li, sourdough bread making goes back 14000 years. I've recently weighed up the risks of giving up grains completely and then losing any bacteria that use gluten as a food source, and the effects that might have if I ever had a grain product again. DD gets married soon and I am going to enjoy eating a piece of wedding cake, both guilt and gut problem free. :D

    I avoid wheat germ agglutinate, but a mix of rye and white flour, or a seeded white flour sourdough loaf and I can eat a small amount no problem. Bread was a staple during my childhood, mostly home made, but even commercial breadmaking was a completely different ballgame to how its made now. Its quite interesting that we get our mitochondrial DNA from our mothers, and also our initial microbiome from them too through coming through the birth canal. There's a hypothesis that the language of how the microbiome "talks" to their "sister" mitochondria is postbiotics.

    In terms of raising uric acid and the gout link, normal bread is high glycemic but sourdough bread is low glycemic, so much less chance of a sudden high concentration of glucose hitting the liver and triggering fructose -> uric acid production.
    JanSz likes this.
  14. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK New Member


    With Dr Que Collins interest in oxygenated water, this goes back to 1979 and is about surgery rather than acute or chronic dehydration but thought the connection between vasopressin and oxygen availability is interesting. :)

    The effect of vasopressin on oxygen availability

    A link to oxygen availability in sleep?
    Clock-driven vasopressin neurotransmission mediates anticipatory thirst prior to sleep
  15. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    When dr Huberman discusses the amount of water that we need over 24hr day,
    he mentions numerous times that most water we need is in the first 10 hrs after we got up.
    Assuming 8 hrs sleep, 24-8-10=6
    So, in the last 6 hrs of the day it is winding down and minor water adjustment period.

    He ends up with something slightly less than 2.5 liters (and eventually up from there when working or exercising).

    Wonder if he already did or plans on doing podcast on the (large amounts) of matrix water that we make daily (and the super high amounts of energy released in the process).
    Do not expect him to think of drinking water being a sort of similar in function to the oil in gasoline or diesel engine.
    And the gasoline or diesel function being carried by matrix water.

    I send dr Huberman this comment to his water podcast.
    Thank you for highly informative podcast.

    So eventually on average within ten hours after waking up, we should drink 2-2.5 liters of water daily and adjust up from there when working, exercising, being in high heat area, etc.

    The Dr Boros, who is currently a professor of Pediatrics, Endocrinology and Metabolism at the UCLA School of Medicine. He thinks of one liter as his goal. Possibly less.

    He thinks that we should get plenty of water just by eating food, especially fat.

    Body is made mostly of cells. Most cells have mitochondria. Within mitochondria there is Matrix within separate membrane.

    Within mitochondrial matrix ATP is made.

    During 24 hours of the day about a bodyweight of ATP is made.

    Before ATP happens, water must be made. Two Hydrogens are joining with one Oxygen. Burning process, lots of energy is released.

    Average person, say 72kg=160lbs

    Makes 72kg ATP

    About 17 kg of water is made to accomplish that.

    Most of that water eventually is broken down by melatonin and stay within cycle.

    But some goes thru Matrix membrane into Mitochondria.

    Then thru mitochondrial membrane into cell.

    Then thru cell membranes into extra-cellular space.

    And out.

    None of the water we drink makes into matrix or mitochondria.



    Only 5% of it is made in pineal gland (Circadian Rhythm)

    95% of melatonin is made in mitochondria.

    Melatonin | Dr. Richard Cheng, Cheng Integrative Health Center (drwlc.com)
    Melatonin.jpg (1911×1080) (drwlc.com)

    Zero surprises here - AIDS addressable by improving redox power of immune system | Jack Kruse Optimal Health Forum

    Last edited: Mar 23, 2023 at 10:29 AM
  16. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK New Member

    The Inner Mitochondrial Membrane Has Aquaporin-8 Water Channels and Is Highly Permeable to Water

    Another thing could be for temperature control within the mitochondria?

    Another question is whether the mitochondria need to import a certain amount of deuterium when new mitochondria are formed, or enlarge before dividing etc, as part of the respiratory protein structure.
  17. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Yes, JanSz. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/finding-calling-out-centralized-bullsit-jack-kruse
    JanSz likes this.
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