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Got more labs in; need interpreters!

Discussion in 'Optimal Labs' started by MamaGrok, Jan 9, 2013.

  1. MamaGrok

    MamaGrok New Member

    Thanks for all the very helpful thoughts!!
    I'm sorry; what I meant was that I'm over converting T4 to RT3 instead of T3. My T4 is a little high; my T3 is very high; my rT3 is sky high. All points to too much thyroid medication, yes. But I got there by following the STTM protocol of raising every two weeks by half grain, and each time I felt even better than before, and no hyper signs, so I kept going. It was only when I got to 4gr NT + 2.6 TG that I got the first "maybe too much" signs.

    I've come to the same conclusion you have; that there is more in play than just thyroid. I'm sure adrenals play a role, and that's improving some with the CT3P, but I'm sure there's somethin gelse, too. I have hope that the mitochondrial Rx will help when I get my supp's in in the next few days.

    LOL, mine was a phenomenol 7 before. !! And now it's 13, but that's mostly b/c the T3 is way too high. It's not because the rT3 has gone down,and I doubt it's because I'm converting T4 to T3. The change from 7 to 13 indicates no improvement, I'm afraid.

    Definitely an interesting path to consider, however, I was definitely consuming dairy before the first set of tests, and only managed 6mo without it after that test, then started having it on rare occasion again for the next 5mo, then a good bit more during the last month before the second set of tests. I have a hard time imagining that tiny amount of dairy could have sucha huge affect,but fillers is definitely a reason why I'd like to use TG, ultimately.

    Just 10lb in the last year. I wish it were more!
  2. KiwiLauren

    KiwiLauren Gold

    Mama, I thought of you today as I was emailing with a friend who is trying to help me with my thyroid issues. She said the following to me (pasted below) in response to self-dosing and increasing my NDT and it seems to describe what you are dealing with. Helpful?

    "...you will have to monitor for RT3. if you choose this approach I would take milk thistle and choline to try and ensure you do not end up with RT3 problems (RT3 would manifest itself as increasing hypo symptoms despite taking more thyroid and would show in labs with a high FT4 and a top level FT3 despite feeling worse)."
  3. MamaGrok

    MamaGrok New Member


    That's exactly why I didn't think my most recent labs would show an RT3 problem continuing. (I knew I had one before making changes.) I *did* feel better with every NDT increase. I feel 100x better now than before starting NDT, even though my RT3 has climbed even more.

    I can't make sense of it.
  4. Aussie Nana

    Aussie Nana New Member

    I suspect that your rT3 has climbed because you have more free T3 available and its shunting the extra into rT3. I'll be interested to watch this and see how you sort it out.

    A thought came to mind. Some time back (1998) I felt great as I kept adding more and more NT. Then I got worried when I seemed to keep needing more and more to keep the good feelings and I was going downhill. So instead of adding more I started to slowly decrease it. It seemed that as long as I was varying my intake - either increasing or decreasing it - my body felt great. If I stayed at one level of NT after a few weeks I started to feel increasingly symptomatic. So for a while, until I ran out of my supply of NT I cycled up and down. Not sure that this info is helpful to anyone at all, but it was an indicator of how complicated this all is.
  5. MamaGrok

    MamaGrok New Member

    Alright, some mid-term labs to check on things. Parentheses are just for ease of reading decimals. Italics are the items I had tested this week. I'm looking for absolute numbers, sure, but especially overall patterns.

    First # - range
    Second # - 1/2012 CD5
    Third # - 7/2012 CD19
    Fourth # - 1/2013 CD5
    Last # - 3/2013 CD19

    -Pregnenolone <151 56.79.76.x
    -DHEA-s 60.9-337 254.x.281.218
    -17-OH Progesterone 135-70 x.x.78.x
    -Estradiol, sensitive 9-175 19.x.x.x
    -Estriol x.(<.3).x.x

    -LH 2.4-12.6 4.x.7.x
    -FSH 3.5-12.5 5.x.9.x
    -Prolactin 4.8-23.3 18.x.x.x
    -Testosterone, Total 10-55 39.x.x.x
    -Testosterone, Serum 8-48
    -Testosterone, Free .1-.85 (.26).x.x.(.1)
    -Testosterone, %Free .5-2.8 (.88).x.x.(1.28)
    -SHBG 24.6-122 151.162.189.x

    -Estrone 50-114 x.x.x.94
    -Progesterone 6-28Dzugan (.4).(14.2).(.5).(14.2)
    -Estrogens, Total 250-437Dzugan
    (Keep in mind that for the last four, it was CD5.CD19.CD5.CD19 respectively)

    Free T3 2-4.4 (2.2).(2.3).(6.1).(4.4) (I started Thyrogold b4 the 2nd test, NDT b4 the third, backed off both b4 the 4th)
    Reverse T3 90-350 314.282.455.133
    FreeT3/rT3 ratio >20

    Dzuganites, can you help me? Anyone else? What the FRAK is going on with my testosterone? Is that even possible?? What a horrible number! Yet here I am finally having a slight bit of libido after all these dry years...?

    But finally nailed the thyroid dose, looks like. I'll keep it steady at 2.5 grains/day till my next check in 2-3 months.
  6. MamaGrok

    MamaGrok New Member

    I definitely consider it good news that reverse T3 went down so much. It means
    - despite taking NDT instead of T3, it is still improving
    - it must be improving due to measures I took between last June & now (I'm not sure what they were, though), because it was high then at just 2.6gr/day
    - it was so high 2 months ago only because of the high NDT dose I was on for a short while
    - I have one less thing to worry about fixing. Phew!
  7. MamaGrok

    MamaGrok New Member

    Forgot to note that I have been taking 33mg DHEA for the last two months in the hopes of improving my steroid panels. It looks like it had the opposite effect. I'm mind-boggled.

    And I'm awake at 4 in the morning again. This hasn't happened for months, but the last two days I woke at 5:30 and couldn't get back to sleep. Very odd; my sleep has been 100% solid & great for many months now.
  8. Shijin13

    Shijin13 Guest


    your PG:E2 ratio for your 2nd draw = 95.4
    your PG:E2 ratio for your 4th draw = 83.4

    Welcome to E-Dominance!

    if you look at the picture here hormone-cascade.jpg

    you'll see that Testosterone converts to E2 (should be listed as Estradiol not esterone in the picture). so your Testosterone is being converted to Estrogen over on the BHRT thread http://jackkruse.com/forum/showthread.php?1633-BHRT-Advice-suggestions-and/page58 there's a great discussion going on about Estrogens - and how they can impact other hormones, thyroid included, especially if your Hypo. SHGB is going up - and in the BHRT Thread Joan mentions that as E goes up so will SHGB...

    I also noticed your 17 Hydroyprogesterone has increased - so you might be having some pregnenolone steal occurring as well....

    FWIW I cleared my RT3 using Armour thyroid - no T3 here... I'm deficient in T4, though armour coupled w/what little I'm making is at least converting to T3 now, instead of RT3.

    IMO - I think you need to add pregnenolone, and increase your DHEA. you probably also need serious amounts of progesterone, you might need testosterone - if you can't get it up supplementing w/ pregnenolone and DHEA. I know you're not big on supplementation - but I'd consider going BIG with pregnenolone 100mg for 2-3mths and see where your at. I'd also pushing DHEA up to at least 50mg and adding 7Keto DHEA as well. Maca and Vitex/Chaste berry can help boost Progesterone in some women, usually not enough to off set E-dominance, though. I'm wondering if you might need the Pg in BHRT Form to help you with your cravings.... no-ones come up with that as a possible solution.... might be something worth thinking about...
  9. MamaGrok

    MamaGrok New Member

    Thank you, Gretchen - I have been trying to find and use a proper Pg:E2 calculator for a long time, and I appreciate you doing those numbers for me! What is the good range for the ratio?

    My E is still objectively low, though, isn't it? I think my problem is (if I understand right) less that E is increasing and more that Pg is not? certainly the ratio matters, but when both are dastardly low, I think that perhaps a different approach is warranted? I really don't know. I do know I need to find a Dzugan-like doctor stat. I was really hoping the DHEA supp would start to move the hormone numbers by itself, and it hasn't done squat.

    One question I have is, why would all of a sudden so much T be shifted over to E2? This wasn't happening nearly to that extent before. What went wrong?

    I only had the 17-OH Pg measured once, FWIW. I know the format I used is confusing. :) It sure does look like I'm still making a lot of cortisol, even though my ASI showed nothing high, and it was decidedly low in the AM and a complete bottoming out at noon.

    Now, it's been a long time since I read about supp, but what would be the reason to add 7-keto DHEA, as well? My impression was that that was only for women whose DHEA was converting disproportionately to T, either shown by labs or male-signs like hair darkening/thickening, etc.

    What form should I consider taking the Pregn in? I think it comes over the counter, but is it better to get an Rx cream or something?

    Thank you so much! This is obviously a problem I can no longer hope will go away. . DHEA just hasn't touched it yet.
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2013
  10. Shijin13

    Shijin13 Guest

    range for Pg:E2 ratio 100-500, you want to be in the top Quartile. as far as E being low not entirely sure about that... I'm still trying to figure out E - but then again being I have PCOS I've got some Serious E-dominance issues along w/T dominance...

    as for your T converting- to E - I think Pregnenolone steal might be responsible - so what ever DHEA you're using is converting to T then to E, b/c your not supplementing with Pregnenolone along with it.

    I've had success using the LEF brand Pregnenolone, and the nutraceuticals Jansz recommends - personally I like the LEF better, less fillers. I buy most of my supplements from Amazon...

    As far as Progesterone - you're going to need Rx Strength. you can call DzLogic - and talk w/Linda McHale about the program and see if they have a Dr in your area... the other thing you can do is also talk w/local compounding pharmacies about which doc's prescribe BHRT. the OTC won't really increase your Pg to the levels you're gonna need.

    I'm taking both sublingual Pg, and topical - I'm on a pretty high dose - Dzugan thinks its too high - but my migraines and disrupted sleep during the last 5 days and first 5 days of my cycle disagree.
  11. MamaGrok

    MamaGrok New Member

    Oops, I meant to ask about OTC vs Rx *pregnenolone*, not progesterone!

    From the high-ish 17OH Pg, it sure does look like I'm still making a lot of cortisol, even though my ASI showed nothing high, and it was decidedly low in the AM and a complete bottoming out at noon.

    I found my range for Pg:E2. It says 200-300. I don't know where I got that number, though?
  12. Shijin13

    Shijin13 Guest

    I use OTC pregnenolone - LEF brand

    Bolded - your circadian cycle is disrupted - that would indicate you have a miss match -at the brain. you're not sensing time. if you're not sensing time - your body is in a state of "Fight or flight" so pregnenolone steal should be occurring - what do your lipids look like? are your LDLs high or are they low?

    I used the following calculator to do your ratios: http://instacalc.com/6162
  13. MamaGrok

    MamaGrok New Member

    My four readings from the last year for LDL are

    Bizarre! Now, these are from Mar11, Jan12, Jul12, Jan13. I have one earlier reading than all the labs above. LDL plummeted after I started taking NDT. I don't know if that's related or not. Another possibility that Dr. Kruse and I entertained was that Hashi's was responsible for the swing.
  14. SCRN2007

    SCRN2007 SCRN2007

    Thanks Gretchen! I had been doing it out long-hand in the past. I am getting lab results today or Monday, so the calculator will be very handy!
  15. MamaGrok

    MamaGrok New Member

    That calculator verifies what I had done before. My problem before was, I found three different ways to do it, and one was a long-hand mole calcuation ... turns out that was the right one! I'm very thankful for that confusion being cleared up!

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