1. Registering for the Forum

    We require a human profile pic upon registration on this forum.

    After registration is submitted, you will receive a confirmation email, which should contain a link to confirm your intent to register for the forum. At this point, you will not yet be registered on the forum.

    Our Support staff will manually approve your account within 24 hours, and you will get a notification. This is to prevent the many spam account signups which we receive on a daily basis.

    If you have any problems completing this registration, please email support@jackkruse.com and we will assist you.

Gerson therapy, Terry wahls and electrons.

Discussion in 'The Epi-Paleo Diet' started by Warren Canavan, Jul 28, 2022.

  1. Warren Canavan

    Warren Canavan New Member

    I suffer with fatigue. I have been on mostly meat, bacon and eggs diet recently. My fatigue was pretty bad. But as soon as I eat a carrot, I started to feel better. The effect was instantaneous, so it couldn't be digestion. Maybe mitochondria sense an incoming supply of electrons?

    Do alkaline vegetables act as an electron supply? Acidity = low pH = High protons. Alkalinity = High pH = high electrons

    I have been practicing grounding and sunlight exposure to eyes. I feel alot better when I do this. So it leads me to think the connection between the veg and electron supply. I did try the Dr Bieler soup for a bit, that made me feel like crap(High sodium, or plant lectins). So I think Dr Gerson is on to something with the high potassium.

    Both Gerson therapy and terry wahls are high veg diets and seem to have miraculous results.
  2. Daulatwant

    Daulatwant Kipras

    I've been on and off a carnivorous diet for 3 years. At times eating some bread gave me a powerful dopamine high along with relief from the ailments I experienced eating only meat and fat for days. And symptoms I had when eating strict carnivore were like withdrawal.

    And for me digestion was a major factor in all this.

    The thing that remedied my digestion and prevented the "withdrawal" symptoms is drinking tons of water and reducing salt intake.

    Part of what made bread and other plant-foods so addictive is salt. Typical store bought bread has about 1g of salt per 3 slices. When I made bread without salt and ate it the cravings stopped completely.

    To avoid issues for months nearly everyday I would spend a 1-2 hours drinking 2-3 liters right after eating or any time I had signs of "dehydration". Those signs are: headaches, fatigue, stomach upset, bloating. For the longest time I could not connect the dots between various symptoms and dehydration, but once I forced myself to drink plenty consistently basically all of the symptoms were remedied.

    It took me over 2 years to figure out how to drink water properly. So don't be so quick to dismiss it, before you jump into electron supply and other rabbit holes.

    P.S. It's been 3 years only drinking spring water.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2022
    JanSz likes this.
  3. Warren Canavan

    Warren Canavan New Member

    I have not been drinking enough water. But I do find if I do too much I get leg cramps, i.e. I am losing minerals, I think my kidneys are not working as well as they should. I do appreciate the lectin avoidance immune calming benefit of carnivore. But I am starting to think there is something unique to alkaline veg/juices. Whether its EZ water, or its mineral content, or the alkaline electron side.
  4. Daulatwant

    Daulatwant Kipras

    I was afraid of loosing electrolytes, minerals and whatnot by drinking "too much". That is why it took me 2 years to finally discover this.

    But then I started ignoring all these worries, and just drank, countless times I would just sit for an hour and drink 3 liters. Never once did I get any issue that would indicate I was loosing electrolytes. Actually any electrolyte issues I used to have were only fixed by doing this.

    I only ran into an issue when I drank melted snow water for a couple weeks. Snow is basically distilled water, it's completely deplete of any minerals. This why I suggest spring water.

    The reason why I did not drink enough water is because I developed a bad habit over the years and my body physiology also changed to adapt to a low level of chronic dehydration. Thus whenever I tried drinking more water it was a bit of a shock to my system since it was not prepared for it.

    That low level of dehydration may not cause a problem for years, but as soon as you make any change that impacts your hydration that is gonna have an exaggerated response since your have a reduced capacity to buffer the change from what your body is most used to.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2022
  5. Daulatwant

    Daulatwant Kipras

    Pick a day when you can do a little experiment. Take an hour or two, and try drinking 3 liters within that timespan. Keyword "try" you don't have to force it, but I want you to see for yourself if it really is that big of a challenge.

    Then forget about this and come back and do it again several days later. Repeat this until you arrive to what you think is the proper approach to drinking water on your own terms.

    To me drinking 3 liters in a short window like this produced tremendous relief right away. And I quickly learned to rely on water to maintain the highest level of overall health so far.

    If you don't get a favorable response you can always just end the intervention.
  6. Just a cautionary note, I drank a few litres of water in a short period of time and ended up in Emerg with water intoxication Not pleasant. I could feel my brain bounce against my head. It's how Andy Warhol died. For me it was maybe within 15 minutes or so but just wanted to share that even too much water isn't a good thing.
    Charmane likes this.
  7. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    This is an indication that something is not right in your system. (A relatively small amount is needed).

    The water we drink could be considered a lubricant, an oil in gasoline engines.

    For energy, we should make 7500 liters/day of mitochondrial matrix water (when resting), up to 3x that much when working hard. [/QUOTE]
  8. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Read this and be cured of the nonsense in Gerson and Wahl's. They leave much out to gain any traction.
    One of the better blogs explaining redox potential in detail.


    Why do I love mito-hacking? It bridges the chasm of science and philopsphy. Self-transformation is never definitive, but demands perpetual reconquest of our attention. Modern science has a huge chasm to bridge. This blog close that gap in wisdom. Today's science philosophers believe they generate real insight and understanding into the human condition that stands the test of millenia. It is a false narrative. American scientists promote the idea that these insights rarely seem to translate into meaningful observable change. These two ideas should show us that how we perform science and how science really is done now are polar opposites. What we call evidence now is cognitve dissonance. https://www.patreon.com/posts/quantum-13-is-67653240
    Warren Canavan and Kari Dunlop like this.
  9. Warren Canavan

    Warren Canavan New Member

    I get that they are not theoretically sophisticated in quantum mechanics and the life force of the body. It was my speculation about alkalinity, to be fair to Dr Gerson, his focus was on potassium, he noticed the body was losing potassium in cancer patients. The battery of the human body was flat, potassium was leaking out from where it should be inside the cell.

    Is it fair to say foods containing polyphenols are catabolized and release their light energy? i.e. energy is released in simplification of molecules, the reverse is true in anabolism, constructing molecules. Both the diets promote coloured vegetables, are they having their benefits through the interplay of releasing photons? I had the bad fortune of my gall stone blocking my gall bladder and seeing faeces are white without bile.

    Dr Gundry also talks about in his book "the keto code" about polyphenols. His focus is on Mitochondrial uncoupling and not mitochondrial heteroplasmy. But he notes that giving uncouplers(of which polyphenols being one amongst a few) to his dog and healed its bladder cancer(Page 223). Polyphenols are not acting as antioxidants, are they acting in their light capacity, aiding gut bacteria in their symbiotic role?

    From his book; Mitochondrial uncouplers: intermittent fasting, polyphenols, fibre, fermented foods, polyamines(cheeses), hot and cold.
    Charmane likes this.
  10. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK New Member

    Very interesting book. :) Although he doesn't specifically mention mitochondrial heteroplasmy, mitochondrial uncoupling has the potential to improve heteroplasmy if the uncoupling is the signal for the mitochondria to waste calories, and save themselves (i.e. make more of themselves, and get rid of underperforming ones).

    I think some of the benefits of some of the older ideas such as Gerson didn't come from "detox" or so much about the potassium as much as uncoupling of mitochondria. For example the polyphenols and caffeine from coffee enemas would presumably be working as liver cell mitochondrial uncouplers.

    Gundry references this paper
    Hot mitochondria?

    I found this interesting when linked to post 98 by Jack on this page about deuterium depletion and carnot engines.
    Charmane likes this.
  11. Warren Canavan

    Warren Canavan New Member

    The use of coffee enemas was actually a practical compromise, he originally wanted his patients to use caffeine and potassium. But since coffee contains both and was readily available, he advised his patients to use it instead. But yes, its quite possible the coffee has that benefical sided effects as well. Apparently there is a paper on coffee enemas and that it upregulates the NRF2 detoxification pathway. He was an admirable man, he did the best he could for his patients, I respect him alot. I did gerson for a bit. I think it might have contributed to my gallstone. I started the Dr chris shade stuff with Phosphatidyl choline and Bitter x(mobilizes bile,myrrh,dandelion and other bitter herbs) and feeling better, my skin is alot better too. According Dr shade, the body gives up PC from the liver when it detoxes something , like heavy metals. Dr gerson was against any fats apart from flax oil, because they seemed to make cancer worse.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2022
    Charmane likes this.
  12. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    When someone is short of potassium (and a huge part of the population is short),
    potassium rich diet and likely coffee enemas are fruitless ways to go.
    Not enough potassium in either.
    This comes from @DrEttinger website:

    70kg person would have to ingest 454 mEq/d.
    This is a massive amount if you want to get it in food. Not practical.

    And here,
    on this and the following few posts
    Aging is Not a Disease, Damn It! | Page 9 | Jack Kruse Optimal Health Forum
    is the rest of the story.

    After many decades of struggling, my life is so much simpler knowing this.

    Warren Canavan likes this.
  13. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Speaking of potassium:

  14. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK New Member

    I read his 50 cases book years ago, and the book by Beata Bishop, A Time to Heal. She did Gerson in the mid eighties IIRC after developing malignant melanona which had gone to her lymph nodes. Its interesting that in the clinic the therapy uses a potassium compound and the treatment has been developed to include options like infra red therapy (with chlorophyll), and uv blood irradiation.

    I was interested in this study https://journals.biologists.com/jcs.../Light-harvesting-chlorophyll-pigments-enable
    Light-harvesting chlorophyll pigments enable mammalian mitochondria to capture photonic energy and produce ATP

    refers to the same study but brings in a red light and chlorophyll CoQ10 link, CoQ10 also part of Gerson now.
    Charmane and Warren Canavan like this.
  15. Daulatwant

    Daulatwant Kipras

    Not saying it's optimal. But it's a remedy from "poisoning".
    When I used to drink 1-2 liters per day it was not enough and my hydration would swing wildly depending on what food I ate, how much added salt I used and how active I was. 3-4 liters per day and hydration became very stable.
  16. Warren Canavan

    Warren Canavan New Member

    Maybe its a mitocrhondrial problem, they produce H20 when burning food.
  17. Warren Canavan

    Warren Canavan New Member

    Just reread the keto paradox, he used large amounts of melatonin to act as a mitochondrial uncoupler. to sort the dogs bladder cancer. So that brings us back to Jack Kruse's point about light and melatonin. Helpful to know though as a back up plan.
  18. Daulatwant

    Daulatwant Kipras

    Hydration in your cells via mitochondia is one thing.

    Hydration in your intestines is another.

    Using an excess of exogenous water. May be helpful until your gut heals and is able to maintain it's function on it's own.

    I picked up the idea to drink more water from Jack Kruse in one of his interviews he said "I drink more spring water than anyone else", then someone else reported they were doing better drinking 6 or 8 liters per day(can't remember if it's 6 or 8)

    I needed a fix for my problems and I found it.
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2022
  19. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    #1, since it makes you feel significantly better, do not change your ways untill you figure something better.
    You are right, @Jack Kruse drinks large amounts of water. (Or at least he is showing large bottles of water with him on some videos.)
    The small amounts of water (idea) is from Dr Boros.

    To my knowledge (and my low understanding what he is often saying), Jack newer explained his large amounts of drinking water.

    Dr Boros on the other had explanined it at least two or three different ways.
    Scientific and simple and in stupid way so I could understand.
    The simple ways is to monitor ADH.
    ADH - Anti-Diuretic-Hormone.

    The higher the ADH the more loudly your ADH is protesting about getting floded with water.
    In one of his videos, dr Boros is saying that he tests his patients for ADH.
    Most his new patients has ADH much greater than 2, while his idea of good ADH is to have 1 and to drink smal sips when actually thirsty.


    Antidiuretic Hormone (ADH) Profile
    TEST: 046557
    CPT: 83930; 84588

    ADH: (0.0−4.7) pg/mL
  20. JanSz

    JanSz Gold


    I think you have found a way to num the pain. And that is not a bad thing.

    Thanks to @Jack Kruse providing this platform and numerous discussions here I have found number of things that make my life easier.


Share This Page