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Fasted State Training Adaptations

Discussion in 'Optimal Fitness' started by Barry, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. Zorica Vuletic

    Zorica Vuletic New Member

    Thanks! Yes, I know you can fat adapt w/o seafood, but luckily I have been feeling the best on seafood. I think my brain and liver are extremely happy for this switch. I subjectively feel that my memory is improving.
  2. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

  3. Shijin13

    Shijin13 Guest

  4. Danco3636

    Danco3636 Silver

    Very interesting...... I know when I was racing triathlons professionally (I was mostly high carbs then) I had some of my best races when I had a fatty meal rather than a carb up meal the night before...... At first it just happened by default because I was craving something fatty and just gave in..... Bingo the next day great race.... Took a while before I would put it together.....
  5. Barry

    Barry New Member

    Just read the full paper Jack, couple of things:

    - Subjects were fed a high carb (70%) diet for 3 days before the test

    so they are going in glycogen loaded

    - they were then fed a High Fat Meal, 4hrs before, but still 30% CHO, roughly 75g or so

    - 3 mins before the test, they were given 100g of maltodextrin jelly !

    Hence, this isn't a fat/keto adaptation study. We need to see the same test, with preceding days of 10-15% CHO, and no CHO immediately prior. The subjects then would have to be properly adapted to perform this test, i.e. FST/CT, 24-36months.

    What I like:

    - Fat Oxidation increased on High Fat Meal

    - Eating sugars immediately prior to test did not inhibit fat oxidation too much

    - exercise regime was good, they did the test to exhaustion at threshold, not a time trial flat out study like most others

    So it doesn't prove a whole lot more than we already know. This High Fat Meal, with 75g of Carbs, could be Eggs on 3 slices of toast. Not exactly a keto epi paleo meal. Also, not far off what your typical person would eat anyway. The High Carb Meal, works out at 175g of carbs, which is just a silly amount of carbs to eat anyway in one meal. Very few marathon runners would eat this amount before a race.

    So if people think this study proves "eat fat before a marathon and you'll run faster" , it doesn't. Yes, they ate some fat, they also ate 3 days worth of high carb diets, then 75g 4hrs before, then 100g 3 minutes before !

    Thats not what I'm doing, it doesn't really support my own findings and it doesn't really prove your theory either. You agree ??
  6. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    I know but you have to admit it is great news this is even making the news considering the climate in endurance racing now.
  7. I am racing a sprint distance triathlon tomorrow at 7am. 25K bike, 400 M swim, 5K run. I have been VLC all week, less than 50g/day. This will be my first race since turning to paleo/low-carb, and I'm trying to decide whether or not I should eat anything tomorrow morning. The distances do not concern me at all, but I wonder if whether pushing it more during the race means I should perhaps not go into it in a fasted state. Any thoughts on this? I've done the majority of my morning runs/rides in a fasted state, but I've not been pushing hard...just doing my normal training.

    I am planning to eat bacon/scallops/some veggies tonight, and then thought that I could have some pre-made bacon ready in case I decide to do bacon/eggs in the morning.

    I am very excited to see how my time tomorrow compares with past years as I've done this race many times, but never like this!
  8. Danco3636

    Danco3636 Silver

  9. Lyndra

    Lyndra Gold

    My favorite quote from that article: "So here was this guy who had never completed the race before, but now he’d just eaten a big pile of bacon and he got enough energy to for the first time, finish the race." I'd love to know the details, though, of what they consider to be "low carb."
    EStein likes this.
  10. Barry

    Barry New Member

    How did you do ?? I don't like giving last minute pre race advice, I'd rather people go on feel ;-), hence why I didn't answer your question
  11. Barry

    Barry New Member

  12. I ended up eating a very small amount of a bacon/pastured egg/veggie frittata leftovers I'd made the night before, about 1 cup at 5:30am, which is early for me to eat. But I was glad I ate. I felt great. I pushed hard right off the start. (It was a bike, swim, run course) The bike course begins with about 1K of flat and then 10K of uphill...hard, (plus, we are at altitude 7500 ft above sea level). After the uphill on the bike course, we get several KM of roller hills, a turnaround, and then it is actually more uphill rollers on the way back with a very nice, sustained downhill. I felt great on the bike, hit the pool and tried to get my bearings and maintain my pace. Out of the pool I hit the run and felt slow, and it took me a while for my legs to sort of just get into running mode. It was a 5K run, and I wanted to run faster, but I was happy that I maintained a solid paced, milked the downhills as much as possible, and pushed it on the last hill to the finish. I never bonked. My muscles were not fatigued at all. I was not sore today (the day after) and the happiness I felt overall has me inspired to train a little better for some potential fall races. I love triathlons, and I haven't done one in a couple years. Oh yeah, and I got 2nd in my division!
  13. Barry

    Barry New Member

    Training Update:

    Yesterday IF, 1st meal at 2pm, 2nd meal at 8pm, both keto

    Today: 4hr mountain run

    Nothing before , nothing during , 3 splashes of water from streams

    Felt good ;-)

    "in order for the adaptation to occur , the stimulus must resonate"
  14. klellja@gmail.com

    klellja@gmail.com New Member

    love this thread Barry! As a dancer I've noticed I feel great when I'm training in the morning with an empty stomach. But I'm not keto-adapted, I'm just a paleo foodist not always low-carb. I'd like to give it a try. Where to start? Would you recommend something (like books or websites with good suggestions)?
    EStein likes this.
  15. Barry

    Barry New Member

    Thanks klellja

    Books: art and science of low carb performance , phinney and volek

    Peter Attia and Ben Greenfield are worth looking up too

    More importantly , realise "there ain't no" , my 1st most important blog

    My comments on this thread provide a lot of detail also

  16. klellja@gmail.com

    klellja@gmail.com New Member

    Barry, this is precisely what I appreciate in your comments, this gives me inspiration to find by myself what works for me. I'm very excited to learn more about keto-adaptation and ready to new experiences!

    Thanks for the suggestions!
  17. Barry

    Barry New Member

    You're welcome ... Enjoy the journey ;-)
  18. Danco3636

    Danco3636 Silver

    Barry have you seen this guys approach, research and training using a low carb approach. Not sure if always keto but fat adapt. He is an elite triathlete and coach.


    Your thoughts.....


    - Dan
  19. TribalSpice

    TribalSpice New Member

    Wow, reading this. Barry, you are my hero. I have been doing IF for about 10 months and it feels right. In 3 1/2 weeks I am doing Tough Mudder. I started training in May and had pretty low fitness before hand (but have been fairly fit in the past). I would really like to be able to get myself to the point that I can run the Kokoda Challenge in July next year. I have walked it twice before, but have the urge to step it up. Reading this stuff here has made me believe it is possible.
  20. Barry

    Barry New Member

    Race Update:

    I raced the CCC which is part of the Ultra Trail du Mont Blanc. 100km mountain trail race, 15000ft of ascent. We ran through 3 countries, starting in Italy(Courmayeur), passing through Switzerland (Champex) and finishing in France (Chamonix).

    Day Before Race:

    Fasted until 1.30pm

    Meal 1: Buckwheat Crepe/Ham/Cheese

    Meal 2: Eggs/Sausage/Veg

    Snack: Nuts/Creme Fraiche

    Race Day:

    Double Expresso. Race start 10am

    During: MCT/SCT's with some glucose/fructose


    Finished 33rd out of 1800 in 11.17hrs.

    Took the first 5-6hrs easy, then increased the pace and finished strong. Could have kept going ;-)

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