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Fasted State Training Adaptations

Discussion in 'Optimal Fitness' started by Barry, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    He does this to jump start insulin secretion for its anabolic effects.........body builders have been using injectable insulin now for some time for the same reason because it can lean them out.
  2. Barry

    Barry New Member


    In addition to the insulin response , leucine also stimulates mTor. So taking bcaa's is to help protein synthesis and preserve muscle mass.

    My take is that it's not necessary in most cases. Muscle does not break down during typical fasting. The autophagy and fat adaptation affects are more of an overall benefit.

    Bcaa's are present in all complete proteins. As long as you are eating enough complete proteins , your amino acid profile will be fine. Isolated , crystallised bcaa powder and tablets are generally not needed.
    BrainWhisperer likes this.
  3. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

  4. Barry

    Barry New Member

    same old same old. Just like cholestrol causes heart disease and breakfast is the most important meal of the day. In a few years you'll realise its all a pile of BS and you'll remember who told you first ;-)

  5. Barry

    Barry New Member

    You'll usually find that the one's that are deep in the trenches, actually doing the work, are the one's that know the real truth ;-)
    BrainWhisperer likes this.
  6. Danco3636

    Danco3636 Silver

    Hi have done endurance and long distance endurance for most of my life. Raced triathlons and Ironman distance triathlons and as a professional.... Grew up on running. Gave it all up and use sprints, lifting, long walks, fun non competitive bike riding, swimming and such. No more chronic endurance racing for me.... I'm 48 and feel much healthier now.... Then again before I ate high carbs and was always riding the edge of over training. The battle of training and trying to keep injuries and fatigue at bay.

    No more asthma (it would flair up when over-reaching), and injuries, IT band, Achilles, Plantar Faciatis etc.....

    I think some of that has taken it's toll.... On some of my max efforts I would have chest pain.....

    My life is much more enjoyable with out the drive to go faster and farther in such chronic ways. I enjoy the brief intensities and can still run a good 5K for fun if needed
  7. Barry

    Barry New Member

    That's your choice and observation , it doesn't prove anything.

    Lots of us still want to compete at endurance sports. Did you do it the best way ?? That's the question . Were you using CT, FST, and keto adaptation ? Did you periodise your nutrition with training ? Did you optimise you cell membrane o3/o6 ratio ? Did you minimise ROS and mitochondrial leakage ?

    Simply saying "I feel better now than I used to" doesn't prove a thing. My point is that there is a better way to train and compete in endurance sports that doesn't cause problems. In fact , it brings huge gains if done right.

    The paleosphere is full of meat heads that think cardio kills you. It's one if the biggest misinterpretations in the community. What they have done is assessed it in isolation. That's not how we work. Everything related to health is multifactorial. Thats what it's all about.
    BrainWhisperer likes this.
  8. Barry

    Barry New Member

    Anna ,

    The gains are everything I have already talked about in terms of adaptations . These affect practically every physiological, metabolic and endocrine function. In practical terms it means better fuel efficiency, better immunity, better insulin and leptin sensitivity, better cognitive function , better body comp, better autophagy , better cell signalling , better epigenetics ... I could go on.

    Your other question is good and my answer is this : no , it's not necessary . For obese sick people I would not advise them to run up a mountain in the fasted state for 3hrs. I would follow jacks recommendations for these people.

    So that's an important point. What I'm talking about here is not related to a necessity. It's for people that " want" to do it and more importantly , "enjoy" doing it.
  9. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Barry this is why you can re train those meat heads.......I am very interested in what you are doing for sure........I think cold adapting and endurance may work well together......but I just cant say for sure because we dont know yet. I think it is clear that there is a significant risk with warm adapted cardio.......but that risk is still not quantified enough to say for sure.....but the heart risk is the biggie.......as it stands now.
  10. Barry

    Barry New Member


    the point I am trying to make is equivalent to yours... I am doing things in combination that very few have done before. By that i mean FST, ultra endurance exercise and keto. You have your own battle... and you come out saying " I've practised it, experienced it, applied it etc".... I have done the exact same thing. I have run empty for hours, I have IF'd pre long endurance, I have eaten minimal carbs, I have applied it with other athletes, i have assessed their bloods and other measures... and i have seen the results first hand... I'm in the hot seat, just like you !

    You say "cold + endurance"... what i am saying is "fst + endurance" is pretty much the exact same thing. I agree, there is still more to be looked at... so time will tell

    for now, i'm sticking my neck out, just like you, and I'm taking the hits.... but he who dares wins ;-)

    I;ve got some more on this to share so there is more to come , rest assured.
  11. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    I agree Barry and that is why this thread is the one I check more than any other on here.
  12. Danco3636

    Danco3636 Silver

    LOL Barry.... "That's your choice and observation , it doesn't prove anything." I'm not trying to prove anything with my post. I am just posting what was my experience. To tell you the truth I am quite intrigued on the concept of using CT, Keto and fasting as protection and enhancement of health and performance. I have tried many things to improve my performance in the past.... tried eating raw vegan at points all the way to being a "meat head". I too loved the drive to be competitive both in racing against others and the drive to push my own limits.... I just find that fun.

    Myself now using CT, fasting and Keto as brought about a new fire in me to up my training. I am still staying away right now of over training and running myself into the ground but it has helped heal some old nagging injuries, re-energized and ignite some of my own training.... heck I may even up some of my longer runs from time to time as they are enjoyable.... Doing some things more intuitively and letting health and energy be the leading factor.

    So yes I am interested in your findings and explorations.... I am being an "experiment of one"
    myself.... and when I was dong lots of volume I was doing high carbs and even being more heat adaptive rather than striving for being cold adaptive.

    Great discussions here and I do appreciate the discussions........ As I sit here with ice bags on my back fasted ready to go out for some sprints and outdoor movement.....
  13. Barry

    Barry New Member

  14. Barry

    Barry New Member

    FST Race update:

    So I raced in a 52mile Mountain Ultra last saturday. The few days leading up to it I was eating keto/lowcarb. On the thursday I IF'd... ate only 2 meals, lunch and dinner, both keto. On the friday, I decided to eat some "safe starches"... didn't go much higher than a total daily intake of 200g. The "normal" recommendation for endurance athletes is 8-10g/Kg... work that one out !

    I was experimenting. I had raced previously where the day before I was keto, ~50-60g total carbs. Raced quite well, didn't feel on top form though, although there are several variables to consider. However, I felt that I could introduce some carbs to semi glycogen load and see how I went. There are several studies to show how fat oxidation is not reduced/inhibited by carb loading for 1 day after several days of high fat/low carb so I was working (sort of) on that premise. Remember, these studies only have subjects on high fat/low carb for a few days... I have been doing it for years, also the subjects are not FST/CT adapted...

    This was my 9th ultra marathon raced on empty. Wake up, no breakfast, coffee, race. I fuel during on homemade coconut oil/almond butter/molasses type snack bars. I hydrate with water and sea salt.

    I raced well. Felt strong for most of the race. Very tough conditions, wet rocky terrain. Was in the lead pack for most of the race. 2 runners managed to drift away from me around the 30mile mark. I finished strong and was running well at the end, closed the gap on 2nd place by 1min. Had to settle for 3rd though.

    8.33hrs of hard mountain running on empty and low to moderate carb ! Not sure whether I would have done better totally keto. I performed better at this race than the previous keto race. I think athletes who are fat adapted, can go higher carb the day before a race without it inhibiting their fat oxidation rates with the added benefit of higher glycogen stores. Very tough one to call. Its still a state of "further studies are needed" !!

    but my own study continues... and seems to be going well, all suggestions/recommendations welcome though !

  15. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    I did a 24 fast and lifted heavy.......set a personal record for kettlebell swings consecutively with the 108 lb ball......still did not eat until this AM.
  16. jonnyh

    jonnyh New Member

    Hi Barry

    Good stuff again, impressive runs your putting out there!

    I have a few questions if I may:

    1, Your obviously a talented runner, how long have you been running? I assume a long time to reach the standard you’re running at.

    2, Have you seen improvements when you went over to a keto diet?

    3, Do you ever suffer stomach issues with trying to eat while running? At the pace your moving at, and over mountains, I would find eating tough!

    4, Have you ever done any shorter flat races, 5, 10k etc.

    5, And lastly, it seems like every other week we read about you doing an epic run, how long would you say it takes you to recover from one of these runs?

    Reason I ask about recovery is that we have a few lads in our club who have done ultra runs, Grand Union canal race, Ceasars camp runs etc. and they say they take many weeks to recover. BTW these are carb fed runners.

    From the books and articles I have read recently, they mostly say recovery is generally better on a low carb diet.

  17. Barry

    Barry New Member


    I'm not here to talk about myself per se... more about what I do.

    1. several years

    2. yes

    3. no, eat on the climb and use natural foods

    4. yes, lots

    5. all about conditioning, another topic for another day !
  18. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

  19. Barry

    Barry New Member

    FST Training Update:

    Pushed the boundaries out a bit today. That's what its all about after all.

    Ran for 5.15hrs mountain trail on empty. Consumed NOTHING during. Drank only 900ml of water with some salt.

    My nutrition the day before was Keto.
  20. chocolate

    chocolate Silver

    Tell us how you sleep, please, and GO you!
    EStein likes this.

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