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Fasted State Training Adaptations

Discussion in 'Optimal Fitness' started by Barry, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    the post exercise window is the area that needs to the most work in the ketoadapted but those who are using it are not talking.......I think MCT and BCAA make the most sense but I wonder what would the affects of a small carb load do since Insulin sensitivity will be high and lead to lean adaptations in muscle. Its just a question that needs an answer.
  2. Barry

    Barry New Member

    Good question, here's my 2 cents:

    I think some carbs post exercise has benefits that far outweigh the negatives. Like you said, insulin sensitiviy is high, Glut-4 transporters are switched on, glycogen synthase is activated... so why not use them ? In fact, by not using them I think it risks muscle insulin resistance. In addition, although leucine potentiates mTor, its insulin that does the protein synthesis work. And carbs are the best insulin spiking foods. All this will help with overall nutrient partitioning which is one of the key objectives anyway. I also think the suppression of cortisol is useful post heavy exercise.

    Anecdotally, I find find consuming carbs immediately post exercise also helps with "cravings" later in the day. So possibly some appetite hormonal response or even "set-point".

    Again, context is needed. So exercise type, duration, intensity, goals, fitness, health etc all need to be taken into account.
  3. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Barry I just did a podcast with Ben Greenfield about elite level athletes and CT and I actually mentioned you in the podcast. It should air in 7-10 days. Post workout 80% carb and 20% protein is what I do. But the volume and amount of food is eaten very quickly and I make sure it is close to frozen in smoothie forum.
  4. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Im hoping that more keto adapted athletes open up and talk about what they are doing.
  5. Doug

    Doug New Member

    this looks like a good thread to post this question.

    my long term goal is to hike the Appalachian Trail....which now means i would have to figure out how to source foods since i've adopted the paleo lifestyle. Any suggestions/thoughts?

    on another note...i just subscribed to The Morrison System (morrisonsystem.com), so many things i like about their approach, but i'm sad to say they have nutritional info is still stuck in ancient SAD thinking. Does anyone have and good info on using Paleo/Keto-Paleo Diet with training? HITT, Indurance, or something i could use out in the sticks of the Appalachian Trail? i'm sure it's easy to pack tons of granola bars for a SAD diet, but what to you pack for a Paleo Diet? PaleoBeefJerky & canned Anchovies&Sardines?

    PS- i also like Body By Science, by Doug McGuff... if anyone has any experience or can point me to the right forum for future discussions about it's relation with Kruse's protocols, i appreciate it.

    Apologies posting mutliple thoughts in one post.

    Thanks all

  6. jonnyh

    jonnyh New Member


    I have gone low carb recently(50-80g p/day), feels good, training sessions going ok, nothing major, but weights, sprints on bike or running, walking etc. all good.

    I have a question regarding carbs post workout, if you totally deplete you glycogen reserves in training, when eating the post workout carbs, does the body still produce insulin to direct the glucose to the muscles?

    I seem to remember reading somewhere that when you've worked out, the carbs go under the insulin radar, unless that is you consume more carbs than you need to re-fill the tank as it were?

    What prompted this question is from just finished reading Art Devany's book, he doesnt recommend eating straight after a workout, and he also doesnt recommends lots of carbs post workout. Also in the book 'the science and art of low carb living', they say keep to the same low carb throughout, even after working out. The key to keep the body fat burning, and not keep swiching from fats to carbs etc.

    As you say Jack, be good to hear from other keto-adapted athletes.

  7. Barry

    Barry New Member

    Interesting , will look forward to the podcast, thanks for the mention !

    You're using the 4:1 ratio which has been around a long find now .. Probably better to quantify by g/kg and determined based on duration/I tensity of your workout
  8. Barry

    Barry New Member


    All that info can be found on marksdailyapple or robb wolfs sites. You can look up any of the cooking paleo sites for ideas on food .. See nomnompaleo for one example.

    In terms of snacks during , it's quite simple - plain mixed nuts, biltong , some fruit maybe , homemade almond butter and coconut bars. A good Whey protein powder would be worth bringing for convenience . Your stopovers will have meat, eggs, fish , veg on the menu i'm sure so you really shouldn't have any problems there .

    Final tip: start all your walks on empty ;-)
  9. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Iknow what Art says and thinks and I can say he is wrong or Ivy and Portman are correct.......in cold adapted athletes. We just do not know yet.
  10. jonnyh

    jonnyh New Member

    Thanks for reply Jack, I understand what your saying. Art does advocate cold work, but not to the lengths you advise, there is a line in his daily meal/exercise plan where he states 'cold submersion is exercise', maybe that explains why sometimes my legs feel like theyve done a workout the day after a lay in the cold tub!

    What about my question regarding insulin?

  11. Barry

    Barry New Member

    Insulin is only dormant during exercise. Carbs post exercise do cause an insulin response but sensitivity is high so it works well.
  12. jonnyh

    jonnyh New Member

    Thanks for reply Barry, I think from what I read in Art Devany and the science of low carb living is that as soon as insulin is present, you switch off fat burning. Especially Art, he is all for that all through his book, keep fat burning turned on at all times.

    I guess my next question is this, if you keto adapted, and burn fats predominantly, when you have your post workout carbs, does this negatively effect your keto-adaption? or once the insulin response from the carbs go, do you switch straight back into fat burning?

    On a side note, was just reading this earlier today:


    I heard a lot of good things about this guy, thoughts on what he has to say about low carb and exercise?
  13. Barry

    Barry New Member

    "behind the walls of intelligence, life is defined"

    When I get the chance, I will explain !!
  14. chocolate

    chocolate Silver


    Short-chain fatty acids and ketones directly regulate sympathetic nervous system via G protein-coupled receptor 41 (GPR41)


    The maintenance of energy homeostasis is essential for life, and its dysregulation leads to a variety of metabolic disorders. Under a fed condition, mammals use glucose as the main metabolic fuel, and short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs) produced by the colonic bacterial fermentation of dietary fiber also contribute a significant proportion of daily energy requirement. Under ketogenic conditions such as starvation and diabetes, ketone bodies produced in the liver from fatty acids are used as the main energy sources. To balance energy intake, dietary excess and starvation trigger an increase or a decrease in energy expenditure, respectively, by regulating the activity of the sympathetic nervous system (SNS). The regulation of metabolic homeostasis by glucose is well recognized; however, the roles of SCFAs and ketone bodies in maintaining energy balance remain unclear. Here, we show that SCFAs and ketone bodies directly regulate SNS activity via GPR41, a Gi/o protein-coupled receptor for SCFAs, at the level of the sympathetic ganglion. GPR41 was most abundantly expressed in sympathetic ganglia in mouse and humans. SCFA propionate promoted sympathetic outflow via GPR41. On the other hand, a ketone body, β-hydroxybutyrate, produced during starvation or diabetes, suppressed SNS activity by antagonizing GPR41. Pharmacological and siRNA experiments indicated that GPR41-mediated activation of sympathetic neurons involves Gβγ-PLCβ-MAPK signaling. Sympathetic regulation by SCFAs and ketone bodies correlated well with their respective effects on energy consumption. These findings establish that SCFAs and ketone bodies directly regulate GPR41-mediated SNS activity and thereby control body energy expenditure in maintaining metabolic homeostasis.

    I was hoping you guys might be able to identify the key points and they might be interesting
    BrainWhisperer likes this.
  15. Doug

    Doug New Member

    Good stuff! Thanks Barry
  16. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Colpo is talking warm adapted biochemistry and a warmer adapted diet......on those points he is right. He has no idea about the cold adapted person......because few people are even studying them. Until we do......saying an athlete needs carbs seems safe these days but science has a way of making realize just how much you dont know. Look at the biology of TXNIP and them come talk to me about Colpo. There are a lot of rabbit holes we have to explore.
  17. Danco3636

    Danco3636 Silver

    Great discussion.
  18. jonnyh

    jonnyh New Member

    Look forward to it Barry!
  19. Barry

    Barry New Member

    The findings so far are flawed for 2 reasons:

    Reason 1: time. Adaptations take time. The studies to date have not lasted much more than 8-12 weeks. We need 24-36month studies to really see the changes.

    Reason 2a: Athletes are not fully Fasted State Adapted

    Reason 2b: Athletes are not Cold Adapted

    Okay, let me try to explain this.

    If you look at the affects of prolonged exercise and then marry this with depleted training you will see the following

    It stimulates AMPk

    - increases fat oxidation

    - increases mitochondrial biogensis

    It stimulates Sirt-1, PGC-1 and PPAR

    - increase fat oxidation

    It upregulates CPT-1, CAT-1, Citrate Synthase or other fat oxidative enzymes

    - increase fat oxidation

    It increases BAT formation and UCP-3

    - increase fat oxidation

    - increase REE

    It increases IL-6 with a postive feedback loop

    - more fat oxidation

    - reduced pro-inflammatory cytokines


    It upregulates protein synthesis

    - improved recovery and training adaptations


    Size and Use of IMTG improves

    - improves fuel efficiency and RER

    What all this does collectivity is improve practically every energy production pathway in the cell. Beta oxidation goes up, Ketosis upregulates, Cori-Cycle improves, Oxoacetate ramps up, Ketogenic Amino Acids get used more efficiently , Acetly-CoA Dehydrogenase is stimulated.

    Tie this in then with improved thyroid function, increased insulin sensitivity, natural calorie restriction, upregulation of endogenous antioxidants and the big one - Epigenetics... and what do you get ?? a lean mean fat burning machine !!

    And this all happens as a result of exercise, particularly prolonged endurance, just pubmed any of the above and you will see.

    What I;m doing is accelerating all that by the Fasted State Training I am doing. This hasn't been studied. They have studied people doing 30mins or 1 hour fasted. And they've done this over a few weeks, a couple of times. I'm doing 3hr runs completely fasted with nothing during and 5hr bike rides fasted with minimal intake during. I'm running ultramarathons fasted , 50/100mile events, 8-24hrs in duration, fasted (although I do consume fats/protein and carbs during these races). Still, I'm doing stuff that no one has studied yet. And I understand the science (most of it, not all !). And I'm living it and I know others like me.

    My sport is perfect for fat adaptation though. Its sub max. You cannot run that far at a high intensity. The big question is whether you can perform at max effort in a fully keto adapted state and compete at a world class/olympic level ? Thats where the grey area is for me at the moment. I think sprinters, middle distance runners, elite triathletes etc, where max efforts are required, would struggle with relying on ketones and fatty acids. Would Fasted State Training allow them to ?? I think so, I am close to it myself. Do we have any studies on this ? no. Like I said, no-one has looked at it yet. Due to the time required and the changes needed to the training regime of an elite athlete, we will never see a study like this done. I work with some world class athetes and I have been slowly implementing my strategies and they appear to be working. Thats all I can say for now.

    Finally, this brings us back to CT. If you read all of Jacks blogs (a tough task I know!!), you will see that practically every adaptation he talks about related to the cold occurs via fasted state endurance training.

    As the majority of these responses are linked to leptin, thats where I have an issue with it in terms of athletes. Most athletes have very low body fat levels. I've tested hundreds of them and rarely do they go above 10%. Leptin production simple does not happen (or at least it is extremely minimal) is when the individual has low body fat. So cold can't trigger leptin for athletes if they don't have any !! Okay, so cold helps GH and steriod receptors so thats where it might be beneficial. However, all of the other adaptations via leptin cannot happen.

    I've probably left out a lot more than I know but its hard to put everything I've looked at down here in a few words.

    Time is the key.

    Fasted State Training is the master upregulator of fat adaptation.

    Cold Therapy is like FST in terms of fat adaptation and has other benefits but potentially not for athletes.

    Grey area's are max effort ATP production via fat oxidation. Also, lack of insulin on a permanent basis is not good for athletes either. I won't go into it here but there are serious practicality issues if you are a full time athlete that wants to keto adapt.

    However, FST and CT still have to be optimised for athletic development. I don't have all the answers thats why I am sharing this info. Saying that it doesn't work when we are really only at the tip of the ice-berg is foolish.

    "Behind the walls of intelligence, life is defined" Nas
    BrainWhisperer likes this.
  20. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Also remember this nugget......caus eyou will see it in a future blog soon on the Brain gut axis.......ketones are needed for brain growth and cranial maintence.....especially of myelin......and athletes who are carb hounds usually ruin their myelin sheet turnovers to decrease cognition with deep endurance.......where cold athletes have huge reserve.......same thing with adrenal issues.

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