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Fasted State Training Adaptations

Discussion in 'Optimal Fitness' started by Barry, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. jonnyh

    jonnyh New Member

    Hi Barry



    A great couple of threads you have started here, really interesting stuff.

    I’ve been into triathlons, cycling, running for most of my adult life(45), and love training fasted in the morning after a black coffee, no better way to start the day in my opinion.



    I stopped this last year after doing the Leptin reset plan, BAB en all. Since then I have been eating and training as per the Post Leptin RX protocol, i.e never missing breakfast, and training before my evening meal after work around 4pm, or before lunch at the weekends.



    Most of my training now consists of weights, sprints(cycling and running) and longish walks. The training you are doing seems to go against what is advocated in the Primal Blueprint and by Dr Kruse.



    What confuses me is Dr K’s response to you saying you are doing the right thing in your training, when the post leptin reset guidelines written by the good Doc go totally against what you are doing!

    Dr Kruse has said in the reset protocol that if you fast, make it the evening meal(or lunch) you miss and not breakfast.

    Also the best time to train is in the afternoon according to the reset plan.



    Maybe I have misread your post, but I assume you are missing breakfast, training, then eating normally for the rest of the day, including having an evening meal?

    Or are you missing the evening meal, training early in the morning, then having breakfast/lunch for the rest of your meals?



    Thanks
     
  2. SimonM

    SimonM New Member


    Sorry eva, I must be missing something...I'm disagreeing with the idea that breakfast is important. But from your earlier post it looks like you don't have breakfast..? :confused:
     
  3. Barry

    Barry New Member


    Hi Jonny,



    I train fasted in the am, so no breakfast, train, first meal is lunchtime. I am usually awake between 6.30-7am, train between 8 and 12-1pm (on my long days) on other days it will be 1-1.5hr training, with breakfast then between 9-10am. So I do have "breakfast" some days, but always post training, and I train almost everyday.



    Dr K's references to breakfast mainly refer to those metabolically and hormonally challenged. When you are already leptin sensitive, don't suffer from inflammation and are keto-adapted... energy production spiked by cortisol in the morning works very well. It makes sense from an evolutionary perspective... we were hardly sitting down every morning having 6 sausages with some bacon and smoked salmon on the side ;-)



    Unless you suffered from leptin resistance, obese etc, I see no reason why you had to do the leptin reset. If you were in good shape, feeling good and training well,,, I don't see why you changed ? No matter how many times I look into the biochemistry and endocrinology of the effect of having breakfast pre exercise in the morning, I can see no reason why a healthy individual should do so. The benefits (from the adaptations) far outweigh any potential negatives. You become more fat adapted, improve fuel effficiency, increase mitochondrial biogensis, increase protein synthesis, increase endogenous antioxidant production and improve insulin/leptin senstivity... and thats just some of the benefits ;-)



    hope I'm making sense !
     
    BrainWhisperer likes this.
  4. jonnyh

    jonnyh New Member


    Hi Barry



    Thanks for reply, yes you make perfect sense.



    I did the reset as I thought maybe I was LR as I used to be prone to snacking a fair bit, I now eat 3 meals a day, with no snacking.

    Also my blood tests have revealed high cholesterol, HDL and Trigs good, but high LDL. I was worried it maybe stress causing that, and doing fasted workouts spiked cortisol, or so I have read!



    I have since been following the ‘after the Leptin reset’ way of eating and exercise as per this:



    http://jackkruse.com/so-you-completed-the-leptin-rx-what-is-next/



    I assumed that the protocol listed above is for someone who is LS, not obese and is fit and healthy.



    I’m 5’9”, 144lbs, so definitely not obese! My last blood test was very good, apart from the high cholesterol, I have low CRP, low fasting glucose etc.



    Can I ask what you typical diet looks like, you say you eat lots of fat, what foods do you get your fat from?



    Thanks again.
     
  5. Barry

    Barry New Member


    Hi Jonny,



    My fat intake has gradually increased over the years. I will emphasize the "gradual" thing here, its not something you go straight into which is something that has to be considered by people reading my thread. I find people want to jump straight into things and expect fast results.. as I mentioned.. I've been adapting and periodising the way I eat for the past few years, which I have then tied in with my training strategies.



    So now, yes, I eat a lot of fat. It depends on the day in terms of training volume etc so there is no one magic formula. Macronutrient percentages are not set in stone and really grammes of macro's are what we need to pay attention to, not percentages.



    But basically I consume a high amount of saturated fats, medium mono's and smaller amounts of poly's. My foods are all well sourced animal foods - red meats, eggs, fermented dairy ... fish of all types.. daily hits of butter, coconut oil, nut butter and mixed nuts. I do have avocado's and extra virgin olive oil fairly regularly too.



    I do have to cycle my carb intake based on my training volume, but most of this increased amount is consumed during my training when insulin is dormant. Rest days I'm at 50g CHO or lower. Occassionally I have a "refeed" day where my carb intake will be high - ironically this has been used to switch on leptin for those who are low carb. Has this been discussed or mentioned in any of Dr K's articles ? anyone know ?



    One thing that hasn't really been mentioned is leptin production by lean people. If you are ves strongly in stem from. Going to the gym to do your specific formatted 20min metcon or eccentric loading with specific reps and rests etc etc... which will switch on mTOR, GH and won't spike cortisol and raise ROS and all the other "bad" stuff... is in my opinion, actually counter-productive from an physcological, epigenetic and ultimately health and longevity point of view.



    Don't get me wrong, if you really enjoy doing those type of workouts and look forward to them every time and get immense satistfaction from them, then great, keep it going. However, if you love going out for long runs, long bikes, long skiing, kayaking, or whatever...feel good and look good, then don't feel that you need to give them up !



    On that note, I'm doing a 55Km mountain trail race tomorrow in the sunshine (on empty of course ;-)... and I can't wait !!
     
    BrainWhisperer likes this.
  6. eva

    eva New Member




    this is embarassing: i wrote >>>breakfast is superimportant and IF should not be tried if you are LR.
    if you are leptinresistant. i am not. would you say leptinresistant persons shoutd skip breakfast????
     
  7. Danco3636

    Danco3636 Silver

    Another great thread.... I intend to follow it as well.

    I am adding back in my 16/8 up to 20/4 IF..... Skipping breakfast. Am currently doing CT.... and for me it just isn't fun being cold, though it is getting easier.

    Debating on how much carbs to add back in..... Been doing keto with BAB but perhaps I didn't need to add in the BAB as I had been doing 16/8 and up to 48 hour fasts in the past, am in good shape with low body fat, 5-6%.

    I see others have had good success staying low carbs and only having up to around 50g post workout. Sense being Keto for the last 3-4 weeks and working out I have been feeling real good.

    So perhaps the adding of 2-300g of carbs post workout isn't really needed.... Even for strength and explosive training...??? I may do well just upping my amino's, proteins and some carbs via seasonal fruit/ berries....

    Also thoughts on sweet potatoes post workout?



    Excited to see how others do it and the effect CT has on training and performance.



    - Dan
     
  8. Barry

    Barry New Member


    To help answer your question, its worth taking this into account:



    Performance + reduced Health/Longevity = for most will improve if carbs are main fuel source. But ROS increases with stem cell damage and telomere shortening



    Better Health/Longevity + reduced Performance = for most, keto is better. Less ROS, less stem cell damage, longer telomeres.



    I am simplfying things a bit here but hopefully you see what I mean. So in terms of you re-introducing carbs, you have to decide what is best for you and what your goals are. I think a cyclical approach is more feasible, where you cycle between keto and higher carb intake, and potentially its more beneficial for serious athletes.



    Your type of training will be fuelled by PCr system, Cori aswell as ketones and amino's. So your short stuff can be more tolerated by longer term keto perhaps. It is advantagous to increase your MCT and BCAA intake to promote ketogenesis even further. So get on the CO and BCAA's pre and post. You might also want to consider increasing your dairy for recovery - if well tolerated and you can get a good source...



    As I indicated though, adding back things like sweet potatoes and fruits from time to time is probably a good thing to do.



    hope that helps
     
  9. Danco3636

    Danco3636 Silver


    Barry, thanks for your response....



    So If I have you right..... Carbs introduced would be beneficial to performance but may not be for health? Also going deep keto would or may hamper performance/ gains but be healthier long term....



    Also better to do a higher up carbs on on certain days..... say lift days (three days a week) rather than just in small amounts which would bring me out of ketosis but not add much of benefit and perhaps not as healthy... ie: slipping in an out of ketosis in small amounts.



    Perhaps I am a little confused.....



    Again thanks for your insights.....



    - Dan
     
  10. Barry

    Barry New Member


    No, you got it right. I think you need to go keto more long term in order to optimise adaptations.. So I mean cycling weeks/months ., not days. I haven't worked out exact timings yet but I think they would differ largely from person to person based on sport type, training volume and nutrition history.
     
  11. AKMan

    AKMan New Member

    Hey, Barry - You should try to come to Alaska for a winter mountain race like no other in the world.



    "This race is serious. Started in 1982, it is perhaps the first true wilderness race after the one Otzi the Ice Man ran against the guy with the bow and arrows. The race has a starting point and a finish point, somewhere in Alaska, with no required or set route. No traveling on roads. No motorized vehicles. Carry everything. Drop nothing. No food or equipment pick-ups or drops. Serious grizzly bear country, and they can run faster than you, and they are the least of the hazards. The race area changes every three or so years. Some of the winners over the years have been very innovative in route selection and techniques, as have some of the losers. Usually a 3 - 6 day race, in the summer.



    If you have not done the Alaska Mountain Wilderness Classic, do not too widely brag about any extreme adventure races you have done. If you have done the Alaska Mountain Wilderness Classic, and survived, you might not brag about things anymore."



    http://packrafting.blogspot.com/2012/04/2012-winter-wilderness-classic.html





    http://classicreport.blogspot.com/
     
  12. Barry

    Barry New Member

    Akman,



    Sounds good , right up my street ! Might have to add it to the schedule !
     
  13. Danco3636

    Danco3636 Silver


    What's your thoughts on being or staying keto/ fat adapt and using whey, BCAA's, leucine, MCT/ coconut milk/ oil post workout to build muscle and strength. This would be after lifting.

    For example, coconut oil and whey protein spikes insulin levels, so perhaps drinking a post workout shake of coconut oil and protein powder after weight training on a ketogenic diet (it would also be pretty tasty). Also adding in more BCAA's.



    Iv'e done carb refeeds and they do leave me a bit bloated, gassy and tired afterwards. I seem to stay sharp and focused on a LC or VLC diet but also want the benefits of muscle/ strength building from insulin, etc.



    Perhaps there are benefits to replenishing glycogen stores and performance and gains?



    Wondering your thoughts?
     
  14. Barry

    Barry New Member

    There are lots of benefits. But there are disadvantages too, long term . So like I said , it's about being cyclical. You can use mct/bcAa/dairy for recovery for sure. Long term this might not be optimal for performance though and Insulin resistance might be a concern.



    Really , there are no set rules and context and individual circumstance have to be looked at closely. You need work out your own cycling phases with the performance/longevity thinking firmly in place.
     
  15. Barry

    Barry New Member

    Raced a mountain ultra marathon yesterday , 40miles.



    Fasted, no food pre race. Days previous were keto and low carb , no carb loading done.



    Consumed mct's, amino's during and some glucose/fructose towards the end.



    Finished 3rd in 7.05hrs.



    This made me the overall series Winner ! (over 4 races )



    Fasted state works ! :)
     
  16. AKMan

    AKMan New Member




    Any links to the event, I would love to see the course. Was this in Ireland? Great job!
     
  17. Barry

    Barry New Member

  18. AKMan

    AKMan New Member

  19. Barry

    Barry New Member

    Just a little update for those interested



    Took FST to the next level last week. IF'd from 9pm fri until 1pm Saturday . Then ran for 6.5hrs over mountains .. Felt strong. So that kicks "carb loading" out the back door ;-)
     
  20. wow! that would do me in.
     

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