Just want to post this as a separate thread to get feedback and info that is specific to the subject. Would be interested to hear any insights either anecdotal or research/theory based. Probably crazy to most but hopefully there are some other mad endurance folk out there or those with some deep biochemistry knowledge, thanks



Fat Adaptation and CT/Fasted State Training Relationship -



this is certainly a novel topic and its one I have a fair bit of experience with. I'll outline a few things here, theory, hypothesis and practical experience. Need Dr K's input and then we'll see where we go from there



I'll start from the top and work backwards:



For about 3 years I have been keto adapting. Its been a gradual process of increasing fat intake, cycling carb intake, and gradually reducing carb intake. I've aided the adaptation through my training strategies. Basically, I;ve done a lot (and I mean a lot) of fasted state training. When I say "training"... I mean ultra endurance stuff.. Ironman type training... 4-5hr bike rides, 3-4hr runs (and longer but I'll get to that) and long swims. I built this up over the years from doing say a 1hr run fasted to a 5hr bike ride fasted, with minimal eating during too. I now do all my morning training (5-6days a week) fasted, i.e. no breakfast. It could be a 2-3K swim in the pool or a 5hr bike ride. Always fasted, coffee being my breakfast of choice ;-). All this was done based on the research I've studied on glycogen depleted training, PPAR, CPT-1, IMTG, Mitchodrial Biogensis, IL-6 and basically everything related to upregulating fat adaptation.



I now run ultramarathons and have competed in 100mile mountain races. I've raced in 8 ultramarathons over the past 2 years, distances between 30 and 100miles, all trail mountain type. I raced each of them fasted. That is, I get up, while everyone else is shovelling porridge, banana's, bagels etc into them to "fuel"... I am sipping on a fresh coffee, and maybe one or two ergogenic aids. I've won 2 races, finished 2nd twice, 3rd in another and been in the top 10 in the remainder. I mention this not to "bragg" but this to put things in context in terms of the level I am competing at.



Theory and Hypothesis



This is where I am hoping I can link in with Dr K. So the theory is all based on fat adaptation and fuel efficiency. So upregulate PPAR, switch on beta oxidation, improve CPT-1 function and various other enzymes and transporters. For more info on this, I've written an article which explains most things: http://www.optimumnutrition4sport.com/?page_id=547 ... looking back on it, I have missed out on a couple of things which I;ve read through Dr. K's work. The effect IL-6 has (and I mean good affect in terms of lipolysis), UCP3 and possibly 1 or 2 other mechanisms.



The Link/Hypothesis:



My speculation (and it is just a speculation which is why I am sharing this here) is the adaptations gained from CT in relation to ketogensis can be also gained through ultra fasted state endurance training.



- it improves insulin sensitivity and thus leptin sensitivity

- it increases fat oxidation both adipose and IMTG

- it increases mitochondrial biogensis

- FAT/CD36 is upregulated

- NPY is swtiched off during exercise

- UCP3 is upregulated

- other pathways that i have forgotten !



There are studies on athletes which support the above, mostly. The studies show that the adaptations take place but that performance doesn't improve in most cases. The reason for this is quite simple. As Dr.K mentioned, it takes time to fully adapt 24-36months. Most of the studies are carried out between 4-8weeks. On top of that they are neither CT adapted, keto or in my case "fasted state" adapted.



I'm probably leaving a few things out as my head has literally been melting since I started reading Dr K's blogs !! but I hope he can comment on the above !



Another Link:



Just to put things in a bit more perspective. I have run over hills and mountains for 6-7hrs, at a decent pace, with some big max heart rate climbs and efforts, on empty - no breakfast, and with only 2 snacks during - I use coconut/nut butter/oat homemade bars. So we're talking maybe 40-50g of carbs for the entire run. I know there are going to be some serious concerns about cortisol and telomeres etc but I don't want to conversation to center around that for now. I do what I do because I love it. Its an amazing feeling and experience. And with that I think comes some big time epigenetics. There has got to be some gene expressions as a result of this possibly relating to SIRT-1 and PDC-1 amongst others. Again, hopefully Dr K can comment on this !



Grey Area



As mentioned I think by Simon, the big grey area for me is top end intensity training, so flat out intervals whether that be 600-1200m reps on the track or 2-3min efforts on the bike or even just threshold work. If we are in the anaerobic state, we need glucose. Now the thing is, there are other systems - Cori Cycle and Glucose Alanine Cycle. Possibly also so glycolytic amino acids can work too.



Apart from my own athletic adventures, I work with elite athletes too - Tour de France Cyclists, Olympic Triathletes and World Class Distance Runners. From my experience in this field, I can tell you that I know of none that are following a ketogenic diet. Some of my atheletes are close, but nowhere near

 

I worked out a similar method 5 years ago and did all my workouts in a fasted state. Specifically i had my final meal at no mater than 7 pm and rose at 5 am and walked for two hours. here is what i noted.



I did better in -5F to 40 F

I emptied my glucose stores between 25 - 45 minutes



I can say that for my n=1 nothing else moved. i reduced 40 pounds and then held that for 6 months. then under influence of exogenous Testosterone I gained 100 pounds in 30 -45 days.



I believe for this experiment to work well for you you need to posit a hormonally balanced, healthy individual. If an individual cannot properly access neoglucogenesis then all bets are off.



if you cant make your own glucose from fat , the rest is a lost cause

 

Quelsen



thanks for the feedback. You are dead right and make a good point re hormonal balance. This sort of thing cannot be done unless you have zero cortisol or adrenal issues as well as good nutrient partitioning and all the rest. Its similar to the advice that needs to be followed for those considering intermittent fasting - don't do unless you are healthy and hormonally balanced



Barry

 

Hey, Barry - Good to have another guy to talk to here. All I can say for your plan and theories is: Telomere Testing.



You could get the test, see where you stand. If you are happy, keep at it. I plan on doing it soon, but not the biggest priority right now.



It sounds like you are fit and active, if you really wanted to try a cool bio-hack, you could get your telomeres and/or vital labs checks (lipids, omegas, test, etc...) and then start adding carbs in this summer. Test again in the fall.



My plan is to eat seasonally. I have been pretty much keto all winter and now adding in fruit and veggies. I'll keep this up until Sep or oct and go back to keto next winter. That form of eating makes so much biological sense to me. Even if you gain a bit of fat in the summer, you should be able to recruit more brown fat in the winter.



Good luck whatever you do, and please keep us posted on your progress.

 

Barry;2903 wrote: Just want to post this as a separate thread to get feedback and info that is specific to the subject. Would be interested to hear any insights either anecdotal or research/theory based. Probably crazy to most but hopefully there are some other mad endurance folk out there or those with some deep biochemistry knowledge, thanks



Fat Adaptation and CT/Fasted State Training Relationship -



this is certainly a novel topic and its one I have a fair bit of experience with. I'll outline a few things here, theory, hypothesis and practical experience. Need Dr K's input and then we'll see where we go from there



I'll start from the top and work backwards:



For about 3 years I have been keto adapting. Its been a gradual process of increasing fat intake, cycling carb intake, and gradually reducing carb intake. I've aided the adaptation through my training strategies. Basically, I;ve done a lot (and I mean a lot) of fasted state training. When I say "training"... I mean ultra endurance stuff.. Ironman type training... 4-5hr bike rides, 3-4hr runs (and longer but I'll get to that) and long swims. I built this up over the years from doing say a 1hr run fasted to a 5hr bike ride fasted, with minimal eating during too. I now do all my morning training (5-6days a week) fasted, i.e. no breakfast. It could be a 2-3K swim in the pool or a 5hr bike ride. Always fasted, coffee being my breakfast of choice ;-). All this was done based on the research I've studied on glycogen depleted training, PPAR, CPT-1, IMTG, Mitchodrial Biogensis, IL-6 and basically everything related to upregulating fat adaptation.



I now run ultramarathons and have competed in 100mile mountain races. I've raced in 8 ultramarathons over the past 2 years, distances between 30 and 100miles, all trail mountain type. I raced each of them fasted. That is, I get up, while everyone else is shovelling porridge, banana's, bagels etc into them to "fuel"... I am sipping on a fresh coffee, and maybe one or two ergogenic aids. I've won 2 races, finished 2nd twice, 3rd in another and been in the top 10 in the remainder. I mention this not to "bragg" but this to put things in context in terms of the level I am competing at.



Theory and Hypothesis



This is where I am hoping I can link in with Dr K. So the theory is all based on fat adaptation and fuel efficiency. So upregulate PPAR, switch on beta oxidation, improve CPT-1 function and various other enzymes and transporters. For more info on this, I've written an article which explains most things: http://www.optimumnutrition4sport.com/?page_id=547 ... looking back on it, I have missed out on a couple of things which I;ve read through Dr. K's work. The effect IL-6 has (and I mean good affect in terms of lipolysis), UCP3 and possibly 1 or 2 other mechanisms.



The Link/Hypothesis:



My speculation (and it is just a speculation which is why I am sharing this here) is the adaptations gained from CT in relation to ketogensis can be also gained through ultra fasted state endurance training.



- it improves insulin sensitivity and thus leptin sensitivity

- it increases fat oxidation both adipose and IMTG

- it increases mitochondrial biogensis

- FAT/CD36 is upregulated

- NPY is swtiched off during exercise

- UCP3 is upregulated

- other pathways that i have forgotten !



There are studies on athletes which support the above, mostly. The studies show that the adaptations take place but that performance doesn't improve in most cases. The reason for this is quite simple. As Dr.K mentioned, it takes time to fully adapt 24-36months. Most of the studies are carried out between 4-8weeks. On top of that they are neither CT adapted, keto or in my case "fasted state" adapted.



I'm probably leaving a few things out as my head has literally been melting since I started reading Dr K's blogs !! but I hope he can comment on the above !



Another Link:



Just to put things in a bit more perspective. I have run over hills and mountains for 6-7hrs, at a decent pace, with some big max heart rate climbs and efforts, on empty - no breakfast, and with only 2 snacks during - I use coconut/nut butter/oat homemade bars. So we're talking maybe 40-50g of carbs for the entire run. I know there are going to be some serious concerns about cortisol and telomeres etc but I don't want to conversation to center around that for now. I do what I do because I love it. Its an amazing feeling and experience. And with that I think comes some big time epigenetics. There has got to be some gene expressions as a result of this possibly relating to SIRT-1 and PDC-1 amongst others. Again, hopefully Dr K can comment on this !



Grey Area



As mentioned I think by Simon, the big grey area for me is top end intensity training, so flat out intervals whether that be 600-1200m reps on the track or 2-3min efforts on the bike or even just threshold work. If we are in the anaerobic state, we need glucose. Now the thing is, there are other systems - Cori Cycle and Glucose Alanine Cycle. Possibly also so glycolytic amino acids can work too.



Apart from my own athletic adventures, I work with elite athletes too - Tour de France Cyclists, Olympic Triathletes and World Class Distance Runners. From my experience in this field, I can tell you that I know of none that are following a ketogenic diet. Some of my atheletes are close, but nowhere near your telomeres will be shot because you are using fasting to your advantage. If you increase CT you will expand that ability but your real benefit comes when you RER is 300% of your competitors. I think you have a huge jump on them. You need to cold train all events to crush it. I love that your doing this.

 

This is not an endurance training site but more for Intermittent Fasting and fasted training for strength and leanness. www.leangains.com The site owner Martin Berkhan has in depth knowledge of strength training in a fasted state. He maintains 5 percent Body fat year around at about 180 pounds. Now it is not for anyone who follows the leptin reset because he believes in carbs.LOL But still the information is detailed and backed by research studies.

 

From personal experience, most performance gains have come through high intensity, interval style training. I'm 155 lb, 5'10", bike to work/friends every day, and am on a CRON (caloric restriction optimal nutrition) style diet. Most would consider this lots of veggies all day, but for me it means eggs and grassfed beef/fish as a meal plus all the walnuts and other mixed nuts, butter (nut butters too) that I can find with the occasional veggie/fruit. Due to the availability of good (natural) food and my own lack of appetite, I've found myself going many days having to endure (yet it never feels like enduring hehe) physical exercise without getting what I would consider adequate nutrition and calories--many times not eating breakfast or lunch. I thought I would wither away or just pass out and never wake up. On the contrary, as long as I keep moderately active, I've lost nothing (edit*but* body fat. Yes, you need to be careful as a deficiency is still a deficiency--but if you're listening to your body I think you can keep pushing it. I experimented with keto/paleo style diets for 2 years, and have only recently taken the mindset of adding things back one at a time and seeing how I (as in me) feel.



I'm a scientist at heart and one day I'm going to actually quantify all this experimentation I do to myself. It's always pleasurable to see individuals who take a reductionist approach to their metabolism and performance--I think it's the correct way to go, and beats the shit out of my anecdotal approach. It just makes me mental thinking about it all at once! So many interconnected systems, stimuli, and responses.

 

Good discussion, guys.

I've been intermittent fasting (although I call what I do Intermittent Eating ) for about 2 years.



My version is a bit like quelsen's but without the early morning starts! So, last snack around 12 hours before training.



If I'm running (relatively low intensity) then I run on empty apart from a cup or two of tea (hey, I'm British).

If I'm resistance/plyo training, then I have BCAAs an hour before and a 12oz Americano at the coffee shop 30-35 minutes before start of training.



I do not have a problem with weight, this is all done from a performance-enhancing perspective.

In the last 12 months of regular (2x a week) resistance/plyo fasted training I have put on 5lb of lean tissue (I am 6ft and now 149/150lb), which goes with my intention of adding power to my previously weedy distance runner's frame so I can evolve into a world-class (masters) miler. Power has increased. I am SO not a rower, but I periodically test on the Concept average watts over 5 minutes and it has gone from embarrassing to somewhat pathetic (that improvement was due to technique), and from there to not bad, and now is at OK. So weight training in a fasted state (with BCAAs) works for me. The lower-intensity runs: no problem.



The ONLY time training fasted seems to not work is when I am doing high-intensity intervals, when I just seem to run out of gas/speed.



My last-two lower intensity runs - fasted, low carb context, plus CT - were "too fast". It shocked me. The only thing I added was the CT. I'll keep experimenting to see if the CT can offset the negative effects (so far) of fasted training on the intense work.

 

Akman, thanks... I do intend on getting some lab testing but I will say that I think what I have done puts me possibly in a different category to being just "fit and active". I train everyday, work in performance nutrition and follow all the healthy lifestyle protocols there is to follow !! I haven't been to see a doctor in over 10yrs . i.e. I have had no serious illness. I'm also pretty lean ~7-8 percent BF, decent enough LBM for a runner ;-) and consistent weight patterns. So health/physique/general well-being, I think I'm in pretty good shape. But I do agree that you need to take a proper internal look to really ascertain that. As Dr.K alluded to though, I think I am using all this to my advantage and my telomeres are probably very happy !! ;-)



will keep you posted



Barry

 

Hi Jack, thanks for the feedback



Temp Control: I don't control it although I have been training for years in cold winters. This might involve 4-5hr training sessions in ice and snow. I haven't got to the stage yet where I have the Armstrong underground freeze chamber ;-)... but to be honest, I'd rather be out in the elements, better for the epigenetics too ;-) . Would you recommend temp controlled training for what I do ?



Telomeres: I agree, will have to get some testing to confirm



RER: This is where I think I am making big gains. I last had it tested about 4yrs ago (before I started keto/fasted state training), so it will be very interesting to see what it is now.





One question I do have - Ammonia production. Do you think keto increases amino acid oxidation and therefore increases ammonia, leading to fatigue ?



There is more to this story so I look forward to sharing it with you !



Barry

 

CFitness and Will



I'm been following LeanGains and Martins work for a while now and this has been further support for what I have been doing. Fasted State training improves protein synthesis so it is not just for endurance gains. I also do resistance training, HIIT and neuromuscular work so I;m not all just about the "long" stuff.



Will - you are on the right track. Listen to the body and adapt as you go... it is a gradual process but there is a big light at the end of the tunnel !!

 

Simon - we've already exchanged a few posts so you probably know my position now. I have done lots of interval training in the fasted state. I do use BCAA's and coffee pre workout too ;-) I have done sets like 8x40sec flat out hill repeats, 5 x 5min threshold etc. and I have found no reduction in performance. Like you said, CT upregulates everything. I think my years of fasted state training/keto has given me similar gains.. just need to top up on the CT !

 

hi. im a powerlifter and i have been training fasted 100% for the past 3 years. great gains lbm/strength wise for sure and i also think the autophagy benefit and GHG/testo raise from IF training helps fight the telomere shortening. im a weird sort of poerlifter as i also love proffessional biking (roadbiking). i keep up the skills in wintertime (im in finland) indoors and move outdoors in the summertime. i traine both endurance and strength fasted and seasonal - powerlifting rules in winter and roadcycling in summer. i do not use BCAAs - they still give an insulineresponse even though they skip the liver phase... so not for me because of my MS background. a huge mug of coffee and hit the gym. i usually have my evening meal (most often my only meal) around 6 PM. work out mostly around 2-4 PM.

PS: i have started adding in CT 6 months ago. i dont own a tub so i do 20min showers 2 x a day.

 

i'm wondering what dr. kruse thinks about this thread, since i know he's all for the BAB or the HAB, but a breakfast, nonetheless. i've trained fasted, too, and feel great doing it, but i'm wondering how this affects the biochemistry, since he says that breakfast is super important and must never be skipped.



also, what are your guys'/gals' meals after your trainings, and how long after you train do you eat? and does it depend on what type of training you just did (ie, lifting vs endurance vs HIIT).

 

breakfast is superimportant and IF should not be tried if you are LR. if you are LS then i think his all for implementing it wisely

 

Ninja - eating breakfast is only important if LR or have other hormonal imbalances. In terms of post training, thats where I consume my daily carbs and varying it depending on training is important e.g.



Long Endurance Session - 3-5hr run/cycle



Immediately after: ~50g CHO, fruit/honey with whey protein (in the summer of course ;-)



HIIT session:



Immediately after: protein only



Important to note: you need to be keto adapted for this to work. Possibly also when adapting (remember it takes 24-36month to full adapt), its good to apply a cyclical ketogenic approach. Lyle Mcdonald has a good book on this.



With all recommendations here, its important to put things in context. I have been keto adapting and doing big fasted state training for 3 years now. Its been a gradual process. My body has adapted. I used to do the same volume of training on 350-450g CHO daily.. now I'm at 50g, sometimes less but my fat intake is now huge !



hope that helps

 

Strongly disagree If you are doing the Leptin reset, then fine. Otherwise it is not necessary - in my opinion.



When does a cheetah run her fastest? When she is hungry.

Hunger is a cue to move. (Which we call training )

Eating blunts that response.



But then I guess it depends when you are training?

 

Hey eva! How cool is that

What a great mixture of events! One of my all-time heroes was Lasse Viren. There is a story in running circles that the Finish runners lost their world dominance when they got "soft" and stopped training outdoors in the winter. The story goes that Arthur Lydiard, the famous New Zealand coach, was brought in and shamed the elites by running outdoors (he was a self-described "old man" at the time), while they were all planning their sponsored training trips to the sun.

But I suspect training outdoors on a bike in the Finnish winter is impossible????

 

i believe i wrote :breakfast is superimportant and IF should not be tried if you are LR.





i dont understand what you were disagreeing with

 

atleast on a racebike . you could get chains for a mountainbike or studs or something...