1. Registering for the Forum

    We require a human profile pic upon registration on this forum.

    After registration is submitted, you will receive a confirmation email, which should contain a link to confirm your intent to register for the forum. At this point, you will not yet be registered on the forum.

    Our Support staff will manually approve your account within 24 hours, and you will get a notification. This is to prevent the many spam account signups which we receive on a daily basis.

    If you have any problems completing this registration, please email support@jackkruse.com and we will assist you.

"down under" muscles

Discussion in 'The Cave' started by caroline, Jan 15, 2015.

  1. dantothep

    dantothep Follow life's little clues...

    A lot of the basic Movnat positions are in here too...
  2. i have done erwans movnat course and i can say they really dont understand breathing-stability. i tried several times to get them to investigate what is innate in this realm and they didnt seem at all interested in that kind of exploration.
  3. ssj3

    ssj3 Silver

    biomechanics has no influence??
  4. functional ideal unfolding starts with stabilization, the mechanics follow naturally
  5. Da-mo

    Da-mo Gold

    It fits in with the stuff written here. Dr Deb. Bennett is one of my favourites on this topic. From studying her discussions - it seems the basis of a good seat is the ilio-psoas muscles. The seat starts to deteriorate once external muscles start getting recruited.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Also, from my limited understanding, the iliopsoas can either work beneficially or destructively depending on what the other muscles around it are doing. i.e they can flex the lumbars either way. So if training these muscles you need to be very careful.

    The best horseman I've seen don't use aids as such - they think what they want and the horse picks up on that and does it - I'm pretty sure this is one of the closest things to entanglement I've witnessed. It could probably be described as riding the inside of the horse rather than the outside. Tom Dorrance used to refer to those that approached horses from the outside as "surface workers".

    Horse/rider pairs can feed into each other's crookedness. My daughter and her horse are crooked the same way so if not mindful can spiral each other into further crookedness. I'm crooked the opposite way so when I ride her horse it straightens us both out.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2015
    SeaHorse likes this.
  6. SeaHorse

    SeaHorse Gold

    Great image! Thanks. I know this is a key muscle and I was instructed very badly for years on it's use.

    I love Dr. Deb's work too….she's got some pictures of my Canadians…I hope they show up in her latest articles about the origin of different horse breeds.

    The guy I've been working with for the past three years, Harry Whitney worked with Tom Dorrance…blows up most of everything you might know from traditional education doesn't it? Tom once said of Harry…"Harry rides the whole horse." and I think that is just what you are talking about. It can't really be separated into parts, but it is always amazing to watch the transformations that happen and the changes in the quality of movement and expression when a horse is reached from the inside out.

    I've been reading the articles Josh posted and proper breathing would also be a really good place to start….after years of early instruction about "postures," I've got some bad breathing patterns…I would imagine Martial arts would have been a better path for you regarding breathing and proper core stability.
  7. Linz

    Linz Gold


    My education has been blown up too!

    I am working with several horses , all with a strong block in that thought interaction which only became obvious when they started ridden work. I discovered that they have all had to compromise for early (and not obvious) injuries. In general trainers suggest manipulation to produce the picture they want (submission) and vets will 'suppress' the injured area (or whole horse) in a variety of ways but no proper solutions. Big changes with cranio-sacral work and red light (thank you Sarah). Josh, I don't want to de rail the topic (my down under muscles and rider straightness need help too) but those core stabilisation pictures really make me want to know how a flight animal - that can run fast a few hours after birth and doesn't spend months lying on its back and front - builds its stabilising neural connections after spending months folded up in utero. And how to unwind and re-connect.

    Da-mo, I am straight on the straight horse and crooked on the crooked horse. If I try to sit straight on the crooked one I'm back to the loss of thought connection as my attempted straightness manipulates the horse. How to correct the core from within?
    SeaHorse likes this.
  8. Da-mo

    Da-mo Gold

    Linz, work on straightening the horse. The horse is probably breaking the connection because your straight position makes it more difficult for it to go incorrectly. One idea would be to find which diagonal the horse prefers you to post on at the trot and then work on building strength on the diagonal less preferred. A gentler way would be untracking the horse whether mounted or on line - shoulder-in/lateral movement at a walk. One step at a time. (see Dr. Deb's website for info on untracking).

    Seahorse - I'm jealous of you working with HW. For breathing . . . I watched Mark Rashid through 2 clinics over 4 days and every session began with rider breathing. He could tell how a rider was breathing by watching and listening to the horse. He has an Aikido background. Basically you want to breath with your diaphragm (like a baby does) instead of your chest (panic breathing like when you get awoken by the alarm clock) and this also helps create the IAP they've been talking about in this thread - your diaphragm breathing connects to your pelvic floor . . . . . . etc.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2015
  9. SeaHorse

    SeaHorse Gold

    Yes, feeling very lucky to work with Harry…I've seen MR's clinics too…the breathing is so important. But misinformation abounds. I've been aware of and working on breathing for years and my idea of diaphragm breathing and what I was taught was what people call "belly breathing" and it isn't correct…reading the Han's article Josh posted made that very clear…Followed Mary Wanlass and her work messed things up big time for me…."bearing down" instead of more fluid IAP ....elevating upper chest instead of having the diaphragm on an even plane…it goes on and on LOL….anyway, when you know better, you do better and I was practicing IAP while I chopped ice this morning.

    And to link back in with DNS and developmental stages, I know I never really crawled, just scooted around and then got up and walked early…I feel I must start there to get to the fundamentals again.

    I was just shown an exercise to isolate the psoas….it feels like it might be Josh approved, but I'd be interested in finding out:)

    You lie on your back with legs straight and then try to bring your heels in towards your butt without engaging your abs. The only way I could do this at first was to think of raising my knees and do one leg at a time….anyway it's suppose to isolate psoas….comments??
    yewwei.tan likes this.
  10. Da-mo

    Da-mo Gold

  11. Linz

    Linz Gold

    Thanks Da-mo, and yes Dr Debs one step at a time has helped progress already. The real problem is unravelling the underlying bad patterns due to injury. While these remain, most 'normal' exercises induce further compensation with many of those grooves that Josh discusses appearing. Dr Deb's 'birdy' in that document is interesting and very relevant to the horse just beginning to pull forward and rush past danger rather than shrinking back and spinning away
  12. JoeBranca

    JoeBranca Silver

    can you expand on this? in my own movnat training i really began to understand the proper yoking of conscious breathing techniques to the movement pattern at hand - understanding the TVA's role, coupling the inhalation with abduction movements to ensure appropriate extension and stability, and exhalation tracking with flexion of the body, etc. if this is just incomplete or contrary to what is innate, i'd definitely want to explore that more.
  13. they misundertand TVA, because they talk about concentrically activating it, rather than the eccentric and then isometric role of TVA in maintaining IAP as it is directed form the diaphragm
    the diaphragm has a dual role of breath and stability
    ie it is able to "pucker" to maintain stability whilst exhaling
    in this regard it is not correct to say that exhalation is coupled to flexion etc, as one should be bale to breathe in or out at will so long as the diaphragm is still maintaining its stabilizing role
    why on earth one would want to isolate the psoas is beyond me, it simply does not function in isolation.
    my wife skipped the crawling stage and her gait somewhat still displays that of a toddler when you know what youre looking at...
    she finds it difficult now to do the "wheelbarrow" test as her CNS simply cannot compute what to do with the arms
    it usually results in some internal rotation at the hips when one misses this stage
  14. i think it is safe to say that the more hyperspecialized one becomes to a particular disclipline (ie sport or movement pattern) the further one gets from functional ideal
    this is where my coleagues and i are having great success with sports people, in re-training functional ideal within their discipline, and outside of it so they have a "center" to return to

    mark is a consultant at hawthorn FC who are the current premiers 2 years running
    Linz likes this.
  15. SeaHorse

    SeaHorse Gold

    Why indeed…put that way it makes no sense…I suppose it was an attempt to identify in order to strengthen….but I get what you're saying here, isolation isn't the answer if everything is supposed to work together
  16. Josh - List of best websites/books? (Just to summarize info)
  17. Your thoughts on "wall squatting" or Wall Qi Gong as it's known?
  18. JoeBranca

    JoeBranca Silver

    Forget those, I say punt and go for a DNS based assessment by Josh on the cruise ; )
    David Limacher likes this.
  19. yewwei.tan

    yewwei.tan Gold

    @Josh (Paleo Osteo) and @David Limacher

    Lars Anderson looks to demonstrate a lot of stability in his movements :D:po_O (credit to an un-named friend for forwarding this to me a couple days ago)

    Josh and Graeme like this.
  20. Ok. My lovely just said she's in too so we're gonna book tomorrow.....been waiting on her to make a decision for awhile now......if you can believe that....lol
    SeaHorse likes this.

Share This Page