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"down under" muscles

Discussion in 'The Cave' started by caroline, Jan 15, 2015.

  1. its not so much about that when it comes to this stuff as its not a metabolic strain etc
    it is about proficiency in the various developmental
  2. positions that dictate where you start and when you move on
  3. yewwei.tan

    yewwei.tan Gold

    Isn't proficient movement part of the definition of "healthy"? ;) And if you really think about it, movement proficiency is directly tied to how good your collagen is, how well it can relay information to the brain and other tissues, and how well the brain can respond to those stimuli. Sounds like an electron-intensive job to me! :cool:

    But you're right that we can separate those concerns, and treat patterns of movement as an individual domain to be optimised. I'd love to see the metrics and measures that you use to determine movement proficiency, and I'd probably get that Pavel Kolar tome of a reference book to get myself thinking correctly.

  4. ssj3

    ssj3 Silver

    How does external load affect all of this... there are lots of references and pictures of infants, but surely optimal movement patterns change with an external load (high bar, low bar, front squat, back squat, sumo, conventional, snatch-grip, etc.)? Also, as a child grows limb lengths will change?

    Strength has nothing to do with size/mass?? Define strength... if additional mass affects leverages in a favourable manner which allows more weight to be moved, have I increased strength?
    SeaHorse likes this.
  5. that book is an epic read
    Josh likes this.
  6. hypertrophy by definition shows inefficiency. it is mass equivalence at work. one can increase ocllagen cytoarchitecture and crosslinking without increasing muscle mass.
    bodybuilders choose the most inefficient means of lifting something in order to hypertrophy muscles for competition.
    "optimal movement patterns" do change as a result of a modern world, not by default of growth.
    changes in limb lengths make no difference whatsoever as you would see in the case of many of the DNS lecturers, they have the same imprinted pattern, so long as movement patterning remians the constant during development through to old age. of course the modern lifestyle will remove this constant.

    what we are looking for is functional ideal, it is rarely seen in modern man.
  7. increas ein mass CAN increase strength within the available posture, is it the most efficient way? nope.
  8. The contractile apparatus is the least sophisticated part of the entire motor system. Consider what happens when the spinal cord is severed, the brain's inhibitory signals cannot reach the contractile apparatus and the result is spastic paralysis (concentric activation of flexion, internal rotation and adduction of affected limbs)
    Thus concentric contraction is the default setting before higher center control is installed. So why is everyone obsessed with training concentrically the dumbest least sophisticated part of the system when this is not where the intelligence lies????
    David Limacher and yewwei.tan like this.
  9. yewwei.tan

    yewwei.tan Gold

    Bah ... just spent another AU$160 :rolleyes:. Gonna be worth it though ....


    Random Qns. I can't tell if Dead Bugs are a good or bad idea.

    David Limacher likes this.
  10. SeaHorse

    SeaHorse Gold

    So how does this apply to balance boards etc….now I'm thinking that being able to balance and have the board stabile would not necessarily mean you are accessing your functional ideal…it might mean you are getting good at poor patterning….

    Applying this to horse riding….a rider and horse can meet a workable compromise and learn to move together on a straight line, but it wouldn't mean either one was in a functionally ideal pattern….

    Something I've been learning the past few years is how differently a horse moves when their thought initiates a movement…vs mechanical aids which create compliance. The elusive "softness" that is visible in muscles (no matter how hard they are working) just doesn't happen with most horse/human interactions. And I guess I should add that it needs to be a thought within the realm of feeling safe…otherwise we're moving into the sympathetic nervous system areas of fight flight freeze and collapse

    All this to say that I think I've become pretty good at moving badly both on the ground and on horseback
    Da-mo likes this.
  11. JoeBranca

    JoeBranca Silver

    I think balance can be looked at as the outcome of motor stability within basic posture in both low and upright positions and movements, eventually on a narrow or some sort of self limiting surface. Josh can correct me if I'm off, balance can refer to both internal coordination and the quality of the observed movement pattern which is something later "earned" by the child through trial and error as stabilizations are expressed in the later stages of development appropriate to the movements (sitting upright to standing upright with upper body supports to less upper body support to walking, etc).

    In retraining movement in adults, balance is a skill set that should start from the ground up, so to speak, with the simplest challenges to postural stability, and assessing the appropriate mix of tension and relaxation for postures and locomotive movements. In upright, standing and walking are probably the two first "balance" skills to revisit, not to mention transitions from ground to upright and vice versa.

    Proprioception has to be regained through basic balance progressions. I think there is eventually a place for balance boards and other unstable surfaces, but starting with those seems to me like putting the horse before the cart in terms of balance complexity, since it skips past the basics of stabilization in static posture and locomotion, and entrains compensatory correctives which would tend toward inefficient reflexes in any situation demanding balance.
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2015
    David Limacher and SeaHorse like this.
  12. ^^^ exactly, youre trying to make the task easier, not harder on your system
    yewwei.tan likes this.
  13. Yew dead bug is ok but again it comes back to how well stabilized thoracolumbar junction is and how well the chest can be kept down and thw deep neck flexors keeping the neck long

    The movement is secondary to the stability
    yewwei.tan likes this.
  14. dantothep

    dantothep Follow life's little clues...

    Josh I think the articles on IAP just solved a riddle I had been trying to solve in the gymnastics dish/hollow position. Gymnasts always tuck in the abs on holding this position; however I found i very restrictive and was unable to breath easily or hold for any great length. I tested with the same pattern I have used for squatting (loaded) and boom instant strength; and a release in my tight SI joint.

    I like the poster with the DNS poses - are they published text or video somewhere so one can incorporate them into a daily practice. They appear similar to Todd Hargreaves (better movement blog) feldenkrais audio programmes, which essentially cover a lot the same early months motor patterning.
  15. yes mate they are available from rehabps.com

    just about all joint pain we see clinically is a result of a loss of deep system stability as formed in the infant
    any grooving is a tightness, any tightness is an insufficiency that leads to poor joint congruency through range
  16. yewwei.tan

    yewwei.tan Gold

    Time to start thinking differently :). Textbook is on it's way.

    Relaxation Techniques sound like a good starting point -- http://www.rehabps.com/REHABILITATION/LEWIT-DVD.html

    A just got this 22-page booklet illustration some of the exercises intended for patients to re-establish stability. It does give proper execution guidelines, and seems to be immediately helpful -- http://www.rehabps.com/REHABILITATION/DNS_Booklet.html
    SeaHorse likes this.
  17. it is a decent clinical reference yep
  18. i hate her neck position in the examples though
  19. dantothep

    dantothep Follow life's little clues...

    At 1st couldn't find anything other than weighty tomes of research (which is not what I need right now, considering i've just started in the blogs, and I come from a non-medical or physics background)....1.99 euros all the poses and explanations = ideal.

  20. dantothep

    dantothep Follow life's little clues...

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