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Correcting high Omega 6/3 ratio

Discussion in 'Optimal Labs' started by Mark959, Mar 18, 2020.

  1. Mark959

    Mark959 New Member

    Hello, I’m Mark.

    I was wondering how long it takes to correct a high Omega 3/6 ratio. Based on what I know, it was probably about 30-35/1 when I changed my diet last year. Years ago, it was 25/1, and after that I added some oils to my diet that are high in Omega 6, so I assume it went higher...

    I read that it takes 1-2 months for DHA to be replenished in the skin and eyes, and 2-3 months for the brain. But in Jack’s book, he says it takes 12-36 months to correct a high omega 6/3 ratio. Maybe I misinterpreted what he wrote?

    I changed my diet about 8 months ago, and I’d rather not see a doctor. Should my levels be about where they should be by now?

    Thank you in advance!
    JanSz likes this.
  2. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    If you want to correct something you first
    must define what is what you are interested in (Omega3 and omega 6 have many individual variables, each)
    then test it first (before any corrective actions are taken), so you know where you stand now
    then you will know (at least directionally, how to figure out corrective action (for your particular case)

  3. Mark959

    Mark959 New Member

    Thank you. Guess I have to get tested.
  4. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    Read from page 35 of the pdf, page 51 of the book's page numbers, through page 36 of the pdf, page 53 of the book's pages.
    "Now, if protein in a small amount - two to three ounces daily - is fed, the minimal protein needs for repair and glucose synthesis are satisfied. The subject ceases to use his own protein and continues to secure fatty acids and some glucose from his fat stores. Thus, so long as man has an excess of fat on his body and receives a few ounces of high-grade animal protein each day, he remains in adequate nutritional balance. When all the non-essential fat of the body has been used, he then must begin to ingest an amount of fat equal to that he has been losing each day and he must continue to ingest a minimal amount of protein. If he wishes to gain weight by restocking his fat stores, he may do this by adding carbohydrate to his diet or increasing his protein and fat intake."

    It might not be this simple, but doing that kind of fast with meat protein might quickly use up the fat stores with the ratios of 6:3 you have, and then you could replace them by eating increased amounts of protein and the fats with the ratios you want. You might also not be able to fast that way long enough to use up almost all the excesss fat stores if you don't have enough fat soluble vitamins in that fat; you might have to only do the protein fast until you use up the fat soluble vitamins but not all the fat, and then need to eat lots more fat soluble vitamins and replenish Vitamin D, in addition to eating plenty of fats with the ratios you want and proteins, before being able to do the protein fast again with more fat soluble vitamins available to maybe use some more of the fat stores you didn't use before. And then each time you do that it would increase the proportion of new fat stores with the ratios you want to the old fat stores. That's maybe a quicker way.

    Still probably a good idea to get it tested if you can. The fats you replace the old ones with might not be stored in the same proportions as they were in the diet, and if you do multiple cycles of that kind of fast, might not be converted during the fast equally which would affect the proportions that are stored again.
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
  5. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Nice book.
    Interesting approach, likely helpful when applied to (a large group of people), where scientist worries about average outcomes.

    Testing helps individuals, but it has to be comprehensive and well-planned, if not for other reasons then because individuals have a limited life span.
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
  6. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Thank you for the reference.

    Wonder if you could describe your personal approach to feeding/testing/light and others.
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
  7. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Fat-Soluble Vitamins: A, D, E, and K
  8. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    I've been recently learning about what's nowadays commonly being called the "carnivore diet".

    My thoughs about the underlines in the picture you posted: Without much food for a while energy levels can be ok if adapted to burning fat, and that can take weeks or months to get well adapted enough to not feel weak within a few days of not eating after a satiating meal, and the electromagnetic environment affects that ability to use fat stores in a healthy way, like how Jack has talked about electromagnetic influences on ketosis.

    The last underline - "but because he was hungry" - is referring to the idea that people began eating more plants, cultivating them. and domesticating animals because of a lack of availability of wild game. Pages 61-101 of the book's page numbers are about those changes.

    Below is some more information I've found about the "carnivore diet".

    Hominid evolution and brain size
    From "The Carnivore Code" by Paul Saladino MD


    Amylase gene for pre-digesting starch
    From "The Carnivore Code"
    5 amylase.png

    (25:37 - 1:01:00)

    Rebuttal of 14 claims about metabolism, genetics, paleoanthropology & stable isotope analyses in Hardy et al.’s 2015 paper “The Importance of Dietary Carbohydrate in Human Evolution

    "...stable isotope analyses of Oase 1 humans and Neanderthals were performed... early modern humans (~40,000 to ~27,000 cal BP) exhibited a wider range of isotopic values, and a number of individuals had evidence for the consumption of aquatic (marine and freshwater) resources […] The other early modern humans all have δ13C values < –18.5‰ (see Fig. 1 and Table S2), which indicate that their protein came from terrestrial C3 (or freshwater) foods, yet many of them have high δ15N values, at or above the highest Neanderthal values”... The Oase I δ15N value is also above those of the hyena (11.1‰), and the highest wolf value (11.5‰) from the same site and dating to about the same time. This also unequivocally contradicts the notion that starches were a significant dietary contributor for these hominins given that this evidence suggests that they were more carnivorous than Neanderthals, hyenas and wolves..."

    Oase 1 humans
    "The 2002 discovery of a robust modern human mandible in the Peştera cu Oase, southwestern Romania, provides evidence of early modern humans in the lower Danubian Corridor. Directly accelerator mass spectrometry radiocarbon (14C)-dated to 34,000–36,000 14C years B.P., the Oase 1 mandible is the oldest definite early modern human specimen in Europe and provides perspectives on the emergence and evolution of early modern humans in the northwestern Old World."

    "DNA analysis of Oase 1 since 2015 has made a number of significant findings. ...About 6-9% of the genome is Neanderthal in origin. This is the highest percentage of archaic introgression found in an anatomically modern human and together with the linkage disequilibrium patterns indicates that Oase 1 had a relatively-recent Neanderthal ancestor – about four to six generations earlier. ...Oase 1 belongs to an extinct Y-DNA haplogroup and an extinct mitochondrial DNA haplogroup. ...According to Fu, Oase-1's maternal lineage is related to mitochondrial DNA haplogroup N, but diverged from all other N before they diverged from each other.[8]"

    Alright, so maybe the surviving haplogroups aren't as adapted to be more carnivorous than hyenas and wolves. But maybe the surviving haplogroups were that carnivorous at that time, too. I don't know of evidence for or against that.



    Exceptionally high δ15 N values in collagen single amino acids confirm Neandertals as high-trophic level carnivores


    Evidence for the Paleoethnobotany of the Neanderthal: A Review of the Literature

    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
    JanSz likes this.
  9. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub


    "The “Carnivore Connection” hypothesizes that, during human evolution, a scarcity of dietary carbohydrate in diets with low plant : animal subsistence ratios led to insulin resistance providing a survival and reproductive advantage with selection of genes for insulin resistance. The selection pressure was relaxed at the beginning of the Agricultural Revolution when large quantities of cereals first entered human diets. The “Carnivore Connection” explains the high prevalence of intrinsic insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes in populations that transition rapidly from traditional diets with a low-glycemic load, to high-carbohydrate, high-glycemic index diets that characterize modern diets. Selection pressure has been relaxed longest in European populations, explaining a lower prevalence of insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes, despite recent exposure to famine and food scarcity. Increasing obesity and habitual consumption of high-glycemic-load diets worsens insulin resistance and increases the risk of type 2 diabetes in all populations."

    About insulin and cardiovascular health
    From "The Carnivore Code"
    insulin 1.png
    insulin 2.png
    insulin 3.png
    insulin 4.png
    insulin 5.png
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
    JanSz likes this.
  10. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub


    insulin 6.png
    insulin 7.png
    insulin 8.png
    insulin 9.png




    The paleolithic ketogenic diet may ensure adequate serum magnesium levels


    "We hypothesize that magnesium deficiency in chronic conditions is primarily due to Western type carbohydrate based metabolism. ...Here we assessed magnesium levels in a larger sample (n=50) to address whether the paleolithic ketogenic diet is able to ensure normal blood magnesium levels. ...we retrospectively analysed laboratory data obtained from 50 patients/subjects who were following the diet and were also not taking magnesium or other supplements. ...We found magnesium levels to be in the normal range in all but one patient/subject. There was a significant inverse correlation between glucose and magnesium levels."

    "...not all types of vitamin C break down under the effect of heat, but only those that we find in vegetables and fruits. And, of course, those that are there in supplements. ...Vitamin C found in animal sources has a remarkably high heat stability. If you eat steamed calf liver regularly, you won’t become deficient in vitamin C. ...Apart from liver, [vitamin C] is found in skin, marrow, and kidney. Vitamin C is present in a concentrated form in these organs, which heap it up. In addition, glandular organs have high concentrations of vitamin C. These foods, for example calf sweetbreads, were much appreciated by consumers in the past, but now many people are averse to them. Offal of this kind may contain even 50 times more vitamin C than the amount found in the blood.
    ... Liposomal vitamin C dosing is based on the misconception that ideal absorption requires vitamin C to be given continuously. Nevertheless, it doesn’t. The Inuit are hardly ever in a position to have access to food containing vitamin C daily. At the same time, the Inuit, and all other people, equally have the capacity to accumulate vitamin C in certain cells and organs. This again runs contrary to a deep-rooted disbelief that vitamin C, as a substance that dissolves in water, leaves the body quickly."

    Vitamin C and Disease: Insights from the Evolutionary Perspective



    Open letter to Professor Loren Cordain about Ketogenic and Paleolithic Diet(s)






    "The Diet of the Mountain Men" (about trappers in the American frontier)


    "The Effects on Human Beings of a Twelve Months' Exclusive Meat Diet" (1929)


    Amber O'Hearn's writing




    "Rather than being a modern and strange "fad" diet, many cultures throughout history and all around the globe have eaten meat-heavy, if not exclusive diets. Below are cultures with quotes about their dietary practices. Not all are necessarily fully carnivorous, but they show that humans, and perhaps all humans, can not only survive, but thrive, on a diet composed primarily of animal-based foods.

    North America
    South America

    Aggregation of "carnivore diet"-related sources
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
    JanSz likes this.
  11. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    About fat soluble vitamins, here's a post I made about K2:

    For vitamin A, liver, kidney, egg yolk, butter.
    I don't understand the science about retinol being converted to aldehydes from nnEMF that Jack has talked about enough to know what to do to prevent the aldehydes.

    For Vitamin E, I found this:

    "These data provide direct evidence for an interactive effect between exogenously administered Vitamin E and CQ10 in terms of tissue uptake and retention, and for a sparing effect of CQ10 on Vitamin E."
    Beef heart has lots of CoQ10.

    (has a chart with CoQ10 mcg/g in some foods)

    "Changes in content of coenzyme Q10 in beef muscle, beef liver and beef heart with cooking and in vitro digestion"

    It seems Vitamin E is in foods in proportion to the amount of fatty acids that are easily oxidized. So if the Vitamin E is an antioxidant for those fatty acids when the food's cells are living, maybe a person's body uses the Vitamin E in the same way, meaning the need for Vitamin E is related to the ratios of more easily oxidized fatty acids in cells to less easily oxidized fatty acids?

    For Vitamin D, sun, some foods, seasonality; Jack knows way more about that than I do.
    Vitamin D in foods:
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
    JanSz likes this.
  12. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Thank you.
    Lots of (nice) reading.
    I will get to it, time permitting. Now the virus has priority.
    This is about the desired approach for individual person, not for the general population.
    When (whatever) I am doing, I would like to test and figure out my strong and weak points.
    I am currently doing it by testing once yearly, see my tests below.
    Please look at those tests and make suggestions.
    Thank you, again.
    Spectracell micronutrients and lipid testing.

    DUTCH Plus® $499.00
    1 140707 Pregnenolone, MS
    2 004317 Progesterone
    3 104000 - Cortisol, AM & PM
    4 004020 DHEA-Sulfate, ECLIA
    5 004226 Testosterone, Total, Serum
    6 143255 Testosterone, Free and Weakly Bound
    7 082016 Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), Serum
    8 LH, FSH
    9 004549 Estrogens, Total
    10 140244 Estradiol, Sensitive, Serum
    11 004564 Estrone, Serum
    12 322000 Comprehensive Metabolic Panel (CMP 14)
    13 005009 Complete Blood Count (CBC) With Differential
    14 123638 NMR Lipoprofile with Insulin Resistance Markers and Graph
    15 TSH, T4,FT4,T3,FT3, RT3
    16 004465 Prolactin, Serum
    17 Fatty Acid Profile, Comprehensive (C8-C26), Serum
    18 IGF-1, IGFBP-3
    19 501561 Insulin, Free and Total
    20 001453 Hemoglobin (HGB) A1c
    21 706994 Homocysteine
    22 081950 Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxycalciferol
    23 120766 C-Reactive Protein (CRP) High Sensitivity (Cardiac)
    24 140673 Tumor Necrosis Factor alpha (TNFa)
    25 Magnesium, RBC
    26 Potassium, RBC
  13. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    You're welcome.

    I don't know much about labs. I've only ever had a basic blood test.

    Here's a page about labs from "The Carnivore Code" by Paul Saladino, the book I posted pictures of pages of above.
    carnivore code labs.png

    One lab that's been common with people doing the "carnivore diet" is the coronary artery calcium score, which measures calcification. I've seen several people say after doing the diet for some months that their result was a score of zero, sometimes knowing they had a high score before trying the diet. I don't have those saved though; I think I saw them in Facebook groups and Reddit threads, and some doctors who are trying the diet have talked about CACS results of zero or close in podcasts.

    This doctor is a popular proponent of the diet (I think his advice on the diet is too simplistic though; he says just eating muscle meat and drinking water is ok, but no cultures have done only that):

    "Carnivore Diet- what did all that meat do to my arteries? CACS results"

    A post on his Instagram page: insta.png https://www.instagram.com/p/B2CROaAnXbE/?igshid=m4waz16rj1n2

    And from the comments:
    I had a stressed ECG and CAC last January after 12 years of uninterrupted keto, the last two being 95% carnivore, zero CAC at 58 years of age."
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
    JanSz likes this.
  14. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    I am interested in a subject of reversing or lowering high coronary artery calcium score.
    If you come across good references, please let me know.
    My score is 2.
    Pretty good.

  15. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Eating only muscle meat cannot be good long term diet.
    But fat and organ meat from variety of animals different story.

    What Inuits historically ate?
    Likely the whole animal?

  16. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    In context of metabolic changes from eating all or almost all animal foods, the nutrients needed can be different from "RDAs". So I think the nutrient availabilities from that kind of diet (with the variety including organs) could be as high or higher than the RDAs for some nutrients, and the nutrients in less quantities might not be needed in the RDA amounts because of metabolic changes. Some of those metabolic changes have been studied biochemically; some of the changes in nutrient needs are inferred from test results in the last century or so of people eating a diet like that or traditional cultures' knowledge of how to prevent deficiency conditions with those foods. A variety of organ meats can provide vitamins and minerals in high amounts that are more usable by the body than in plants; for example, mineral and amino acid usage is affected by inhibitors in plants. I've also been drinking Gerolsteiner mineral water in addition to less mineralized spring water.


    One example of a difference from RDAs is this paper I posted in post #10 of this thread above:

    The paleolithic ketogenic diet may ensure adequate serum magnesium levels


    "We hypothesize that magnesium deficiency in chronic conditions is primarily due to Western type carbohydrate based metabolism. ...Here we assessed magnesium levels in a larger sample (n=50) to address whether the paleolithic ketogenic diet is able to ensure normal blood magnesium levels. ...we retrospectively analysed laboratory data obtained from 50 patients/subjects who were following the diet and were also not taking magnesium or other supplements. ...We found magnesium levels to be in the normal range in all but one patient/subject. There was a significant inverse correlation between glucose and magnesium levels."


    Amber O'Hearn has some knowledge about the nutrient requirement differences from RDAs, too.

    CarnivoryCon 2019: L. Amber O’Hearn — “Rethinking RDAs (Recommended Daily Allowances)“

    The Science of a Carnivorous Diet & Why RDA is Wrong || Amber O'Hearn
    From the video description:
    24:55 – Why RDA and biomarkers for high carb diets may be different for Ketogenic diets ‬
    ‪27:22 - Problems with current dietary guidelines‬
    1:04:35 – What kind of biomarkers we are currently stressing on are redundant?‬

    Are the RDAs relevant on a keto/carnivore diet? A conversation with Amber O’Hearn.
    27:49 Micronutrients in meat.
    29:00 Unique nutrients in animal foods.
    34:25 Humans as facultative carnivores.
    37:21 Bioavailability of nutrients in animal vs. plant foods.
    40:33 Fiber.
    41:33 Other nutrients that low carb dieters do not need as much of. (Vitamin c and scurvy.)
    43:13 Linus Pauling's theory.
    50:06 Iodine.



    Table of Contents:
    "A Detailed Analysis of Nutrients, Anti-Nutrients and Bioavailability
    1. Vitamin Levels in Human Tissue - Are Humans Deficient?
    2. A Detailed Analysis of Nutrients in Animal Foods
    3. A Detailed Analysis of Anti-Nutrients in Plants
    4. The Bioavailability and Absorption of Nutrients in Animal and Plant Foods
    1. Vitamin Levels in Human Tissue - Are Humans Deficient?
    2. A Detailed Analysis of Nutrients in Animal Foods
    3. A Detailed Analysis of Anti-Nutrients in Plants"


    Optimising Dr Paul Saladino’s carnivore diet


    Potassium:sodium ratio
    Calcium:magnesium ratio
    Omega 6 to omega 3 ratio
    Methionine:glycine ratio
    Arginine : Lysine ratio


    Scroll down about half way to "Plant antinutrients and mineral deficiencies"


    "Bioavailability of Nutrients"


    "Inhibitors ... may reduce nutrient bioavailability by binding the nutrient in question into a form that is not recognized by the uptake systems on the surface of intestinal cells, rendering the nutrient insoluble and thus unavailable for absorption, or competing for the same uptake system.

    ...The inhibitory effect of food constituents can also be used advantageously, as is done in the case of phytosterols. These natural compounds are extracted from certain plant foods and added in higher doses (about 2g per portion) to various other foods (for example enriched spreads, fermented milk drinks) to lower the absorption of cholesterol, be it from dietary sources or produced in the human body.

    >>>>[Is that advantageous in context of insulin sensitivity though? (The pictures of pages from "The Carnivore Code" in post #9 of this thread, where I wrote "About insulin and cardiovascular health", are related to that.)]

    ...Amino acids containing sulphur (including methionine and cysteine) most commonly limit the nutritive values (quality) of proteins in the human diet. These sulphur containing amino acid concentrations are generally considered lower in legumes and fruits than in animal foods. The roles of these amino acids in the human body are crucial, as for example methionine is the initiating amino acid in the synthesis of almost all eukaryotic proteins, and cysteine (due to its ability to form sulphur bonds), plays an important role in protein structure.

    ...Many [plant] foods contain bioactive (protein or non-protein) substances that may inhibit amino acid bioavailability either by affecting digestibility or post-absorptive utilization. These inhibitors may be naturally occurring (e.g. tannins, phytates, trypsin inhibitors, glucosinolates, isothiocyanates), formed during processing (e.g. D-amino acids, lysinoalanine), or formed during genetic modification of crops (e.g. lectins in lentils). (Lectins depressed growth at low levels in the diet and are toxic at high levels)."


    "Studies on the bioavailability of zinc in man. II. Absorption of zinc from inorganic sources"


    "Oysters and herring, two foods reported to be extraordinarily rich in zinc, were used to determine whether such foods could be used in conjunction with serial measurements of plasma zinc concentration to quantify the absorption of zinc in man. A dose of 120 gm of Atlantic oysters contained 108 mg of elemental zinc and produced a mean elevation in plasma zinc of 142 ± 22 μg/dl (mean ± S.E.M.) at 3 hr after ingestion. Both black beans and corn tortillas, at intakes of 120 gm, decreased the bioavailability of zinc from oysters, and inhibition was significantly greater by tortillas than by beans. In the presence of black beans, equivalent doses of elemental zinc as ZnSO4 . 7H2O and as oysters produced indistinguishable plasmal zinc patterns. In the presence of tortillas, absorption was slightly greater from inorganic zinc than from oysters, but the biological importance of this difference is unclear. A dose of 120 gm of the herring used in this study contained only 2 mg of elemental zinc. When 70 gm of tortillas were ingested with the herring, plasma zinc concentration declined significantly. For Atlantic oyster, the richest known animal source of zinc, no evidence for a distinct, more available pool of dietary zinc, analogous to the 'heme iron' pool of dietary iron, was demonstrable. Our data did show the effective use of Atlantic oysters as a source of organic zinc in the study in humans of the absorption and bioavailability of zinc."


    About the Inuit, on https://justmeat.co/ , on the left column, 5th bullet down, is a list of sources about Vilhjalmur Stefansson, who lived with the Inuit for several years in the early 1900s, was studied in a New York hospital while on an all meat diet for a year, and wrote books about his experiences.
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2021
  17. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Lots of information to chew on.
    Thank you.
    Assuming that one would figure out a certain way of life and had a group of people following is (successfully) for a time. All that without technology.
    That group of people will eventually have older people dying (of old age, excluding any accidents).
    So, I think that there is a place for a doctor or shaman or just medical advisor,
    and eventually, he/she could prove that their input is prolonging life.
    What do you think would be their input/advice?
    (For better clarity, please exclude: sunlight and nnEMF)
  18. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    Maybe the shaman would say "Trust me, I'm lying" or "I know less is more" or "Let's play a game of Shaman Says" (like the kids game Simon Says - you're only supposed to do what Shaman says if Shaman says "Shaman says")? In context of medical advice and whether people should be carnivorous, the way you prefaced the question reminds me of the saying about black cumin seed - "cures everything but death" - and what Joseph Campbell said about "life lives on life".

    And I didn't know my profile settings were like that; I changed it.
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  19. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    "life lives on life"
    With the realization that "life lives on life"
    there are places on earth that promote certain life and other places where it does not.
    Animals or plants have no choice, given enough time they either prosper or not.
    People are inteligent.
    When they start dying off, they ask questions about why.
    instead of moving to a better place, they try to alter their local situation.
    The topic is known to those who fly to the moon, or those who want to grow cactus at the North Pole.
    I am interested in this type of details, so I could figure (and possibly provide them) for myself at my present location.
    USA zip 07054

    Starting with low hanging "fruit".
    Exclude exotic and expensive.

  20. Dan2

    Dan2 Pedantic schlub

    I didn't look through them all, but here's some related research, which can be sorted by "cardiovascular research" category on the right:

    And lots of testimonials, which can also be sorted by "cardiovascular health":

    A CAC score of 2 is very good though, right? Other loved ones you're researching for?

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