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CoQ10...company's response to my question about Ubiquinol

Discussion in 'The New Monster Thread' started by PaulaRichards, Feb 5, 2013.

  1. Lahelada

    Lahelada New Member

    I have also been looking for studies, but even Kaneka the patent holder of ubiquinol can only refer to their own in house study which was not a very broad one at that.
     
  2. ATL_Paleo

    ATL_Paleo Gold

    Like Dr. Kruse just said in the August webinar ....... follow the money.
     
  3. GlenPDQ

    GlenPDQ New Member

    The concern I have is if I am taking 600 mg of ubiquinone, which is the non-reduced form, I may be creating a "bottleneck" of it that my body will have trouble processing. On the other hand, I'm thinking all the CoQ10 in my food would be changed to the non-reduced form by oxidation, the cooking process, and digestion anyway.

    Anybody know how much ubiquinone can be changed back to ubiquinol by the average person in a couple hours?
     
  4. amjones

    amjones New Member

    The question is not whether ubiquinol is effective, the question is, is it more effective than ubiquinone to warrant the price premium.
     
  5. santovin

    santovin New Member

    The rate is most likely extremely high. Ubiquinone, is found in every mitochondria, which are numerous in all cells. Finding an exact or ballpark number is likely to be difficult, but certainly would be interesting to know! Unfortunately, the matter gets more complicated within our bodies because it is basically controlled by general rate of metabolism and aerobic respiration within each of our cells. The conversion cycle that you illustrated earlier is not enzyme-mediated, meaning it is not a matter of whether our bodies physiologically "have the ability to do" or "don't have the ability to do." A quote taken from the site http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edudev/LabTutorials/Cytochromes/moviedescription.html:

    "Ubiquinone has a higher reduction potential than the NADH-Q reductase. Hence, when ubiquinone in the oxidized form comes in contact with the NADH-Q reductase complex (by a random collision), this mobile electron carrier accepts an electron from NADH-Q reductase (i.e., gets reduced). (Note: Because the electron-transport chain has mobile electron carriers, the electron-carriers need not be located next to each other, as they are shown in Figure 8. It is the difference in reduction potential, not spatial arrangement, that causes the electron to flow sequentially from one carrier to another.)"

    Therefore, there is no worry of our bodies ever "losing the ability" or "becoming more efficient" at converting between the two primary forms. The reaction is done no differently than mixing the reactants in a cup of water.
     
  6. MeghanK

    MeghanK New Member

    So have we just come to the conclusion that Ubiquinone is just as good for us as Ubiqunol and to save some money? 100mg? What is the dosage? Brands? Does it matter?
     
  7. amjones

    amjones New Member

    I have now read in several places that there is only a single study comparing bioavailability in humans.

    And from reading other pages it seems it does matter which CoQ10 supplement you buy -- some are powdered in capsules (least absorbable), others are suspended in oils in softgels (better), others use liposomal encapsulation (best -- search "Vesisorb").

    Still Googling.....
     
  8. seanb4

    seanb4 New Member

    I would also like to know this.
     
  9. santovin

    santovin New Member

    There has been research done in trying to figure out the reaction rate of the reduction of ubiquinone to ubiquinol, but I have not come across any actual numbers. One can assume that the rate of conversion is extremely fast, however, since CoQ10 is found within every single mitochondria, and every one of our cells have a varying number of mitochondria. Within our bodies however, discovering the rate becomes much more complicated, as the rate of conversion is very reliant on the cell's overall metabolic rate of aerobic respiration. It would be interesting to know if and how they figured it out!

    Also, because the reaction is not enzyme-mediated, we need not concern ourselves over claims that we can "lose the ability" or "become more efficient" in performing the reaction. Such claims are false. A quote from http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edudev/LabTutorials/Cytochromes/moviedescription.html states:

    "Ubiquinone has a higher reduction potential than the NADH-Q reductase. Hence, when ubiquinone in the oxidized form comes in contact with the NADH-Q reductase complex (by a random collision), this mobile electron carrier accepts an electron from NADH-Q reductase (i.e., gets reduced)."

    As mentioned before, this reaction is not physiologically dependent on our bodies' enzymatic kinetics; it is simply a spontaneous, uncatalyzed chemical reaction, no different than mixing the two reactants in a cup of water (or oil, in this case).
     
  10. santovin

    santovin New Member

    There has been research done in trying to figure out the reaction rate of the reduction of ubiquinone to ubiquinol, but I have not come across any actual numbers. One can assume that the rate of conversion is extremely fast, however, since CoQ10 is found within every single mitochondria, and every one of our cells have a varying number of mitochondria. Within our bodies however, discovering the rate becomes much more complicated, as the rate of conversion is very reliant on the cell's overall metabolic rate of aerobic respiration. It would be interesting to know if and how they figured it out!
     
  11. santovin

    santovin New Member

    Forgive the double post. It appears fitting all of this into a single message requires approval.

    Also, because the reaction is not enzyme-mediated, we need not concern ourselves over claims that we can "lose the ability" or "become more efficient" in performing the reaction. Such claims are false. A quote from http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edudev/LabTutorials/Cytochromes/moviedescription.html states:

    "Ubiquinone has a higher reduction potential than the NADH-Q reductase. Hence, when ubiquinone in the oxidized form comes in contact with the NADH-Q reductase complex (by a random collision), this mobile electron carrier accepts an electron from NADH-Q reductase (i.e., gets reduced)."

    As mentioned before, this reaction is not physiologically dependent on our bodies' enzymatic kinetics; it is simply a spontaneous, uncatalyzed chemical reaction, no different than mixing the two reactants in a cup of water (or oil, in this case).
     
  12. santovin

    santovin New Member

    Also, because the reaction is not enzyme-mediated, we need not concern ourselves over claims that we can "lose the ability" or "become more efficient" in performing the conversion. Such claims are false. A quote from a page of Washington University - St. Louis states:

    "Ubiquinone has a higher reduction potential than the NADH-Q reductase. Hence, when ubiquinone in the oxidized form comes in contact with the NADH-Q reductase complex (by a random collision), this mobile electron carrier accepts an electron from NADH-Q reductase (i.e., gets reduced)."

    As mentioned before, this reaction is not physiologically dependent on our bodies' enzymatic kinetics; it is simply a spontaneous, uncatalyzed chemical reaction, no different than mixing the two reactants in a cup of water (or oil, in this case).
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2013
  13. Matthew A. Sullivan

    Matthew A. Sullivan New Member

    Dear CoQ10 - Ubiquinol - Ubiquinone Enthusiasts,

    I was "just" doing some research on the Internet re: Mitoubiquinone Mesylate and this thread came up - being interested, I followed it and found this forum. I know I'm way late to the discussion on this topic; however, I felt I had to reply given I have considerable research information that is relevant to those currently using CoQ10 and/or Ubiquinol products for their health. Perhaps my information is redundant; i.e., contained "somewhere else" in "another thread." If so, perhaps Dr. Kruse can move it to another thread if necessary.
    Another reason I wanted to answer is that there is a newer scientifically proven, incredibly powerful mitochondria targeted antioxidant that is basically a derivative of CoQ10 (ubiqinone component) that has been supported by about 180+ research studies as to its efficacy superiority and disease mitigating properties; in particular, its positive and real therapeutic effects upon neurodegenerative diseases; e.g., MS, Parkinson's, Alzheimers, Mitochondrial Diseases, etc. It also has been found to be beneficial for certain metabolic disorders and other diseases where mitochondrial oxidative damage is the culprit. The ubuquinone (CoQ10) derivative is basically a molecule that I mentioned above - called " Mitoubuinone Mesylate;" and, was discovered and isolated in the late 90's by two New Zealand Biochemical Researchers at the University of Otago, New Zealand (by Dr. Michael P. Murphy and Dr. Robin A. J. Smith). For the "chemically-minded", the molecular formula for Mitoubuinone Mesylate is:

    C38H47O7PS

    It became known in the field as "MitoQ" for short, and has been repeatedly shown in studies to be upwards of 800 to 1000x more effective than the other "states" of CoQ10 with regard to preventing cellular oxidative damage (in the mitochondria of the cell, which is the "powerhouse" of the cell) - (By the way, There are 3 redox states of CoQ10: 1. fully oxidized (that's ubiquinone), 2. the free radical that is one hydrogen and its electron reduced (semiquinone or ubisemiquinone), and 3. the fully reduced form (ubiquinol)).

    So, this simple one isolated molecule; i.e., Mitoubiquinone Mesylate of the ubiquinone (or, the CoQ10 that we all take), was a HUGE breakthrough in free radical antioxidants. A "breakthrough" that should have been (in my humble opinion), opened to the vitamin manufacturers just like Ubiquinol was/is.

    But, "no," Mitoubiquinone Mesylate was patented and is controlled by one pharmaceutical company, Antidopean Pharmaceuticals of New Zealand; and, is primarily vended over their MitoQ.com Website for "anti-aging." It costs about $60 plus shipping for a 30 day supply of 10 mg caplets.

    Here lies my "beef." The World now has a legitimate mega antioxidant (with no known toxicity at high levels of dosing) that can be used for all sorts of legitimate health problems, after all, it is just another "tweaked" version of CoQ10; but, in order to take it at clinical levels to assist with the symptomatology of Mitochondrial Diseases, Alzheimer's, MS, ALS, liver diseases, Diabetes, Heart, and, a gamut of other organ specific diseases - one would have to "shell" out anywhere between $170 - $240 a month to buy a sufficient therapeutic dose. Why? Because it is controlled by one company. I encourage you to look at www.mitoq.com (and "no", I don't work for them, I'm advocating them to develop - or - share with supplement manufacturers in order to produce a real disease targeted dose of the supplement for the aforementioned diseases - without much luck by the way).

    To conclude, CoQ10 is great, (I take it) Ubiquinol is great; but, MitoQ is groundbreaking with regard to disease mitigation.

    If you are "healthy" and want "something" better than CoQ10, this really seems to be the golden bullet. So, if your looking for a the god of all antioxidants - for general health or anti-aging, go and take a look at it. www.mitoq.com (To sell it as chiefly a "baby boomer" anti-aging supplement is, in my mind, just terrible.)

    To be fair, the parent company, Antidopean Pharmacuticals, is doing clinical trials for fatty liver disease - and I believe they did, or assisted with, a positive trial for MS. However, I am dying from Mitochondrial Disease (3-5 years left), a rare, neurodegenerative muscle disease with no cure (http://mda.org/disease/mitochondrial-myopathies/types-of) and, I, and others afflicted, believe MitoQ aka Mitoubiquinone Mesylate should be made available in a dosing option strength for disease mitigation - or - opened up to vitamin manufacturers for inclusion in various antioxidant formulas. (By the way, CoQ10 is the "frontline"therapy for Mitochondrial Diseases; therefore, my passion surrounding it).

    So, my points to this post are to share the most powerful to date form of CoQ10 -Mitoubiquinone Mesylate ; as well as, let folks with specific diseases know about it; and, to vent my feelings about its limited marketing; and, the company that controls it limited vision.
    To read more about it, this is a really well done Wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MitoQ

    I hope Dr. Kruse will let this post "stand" and if he believes appropriate, share it in other threads or however he sees fit for the benefit of others.
    Below is the citation for the original discovery of Mitoubiquinone Mesylate

    Thanks for reading,

    - M.Sullivan, Ed.D.; Ph.D.
    - G.F. Kelso, C.M. Porteous, C.V. Coulter, G. Hughes, W.K. Porteous, E.C. Ledgerwood, R.A. Smith, M.P. Murphy, "Selective targeting of a redox-active ubiquinone to mitochondria within cells: antioxidant and antiapoptotic Properties." The Journal of Biological Chemistry, 276 (2001) 4588-4596.
     
  14. Jude

    Jude Gold

    "However, I am dying from Mitochondrial Disease (3-5 years left), a rare, neurodegenerative muscle disease with no cure (http://mda.org/disease/mitochondrial-myopathies/types-of) "

    Hey Matthew, thanks for sharing your info...so sorry it's not available for you and others in that situation:(.......have you read any of Dr K's work?....his info just may help you ! All my very best..:)
     
    Martha Ray likes this.
  15. ssj3

    ssj3 Silver

    Interesting... there are rumours Dave Asprey's new mitochondria supplement is along the lines of MitoQ...
     
    Martha Ray likes this.
  16. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    THERE ARE NO RANDOM COLLISIONS IN A MITOCHONDRIA.........They are all quantized.
     
  17. Martha Ray

    Martha Ray Martha Ray


    First Matthew A. Sullivan, I hope you are well. I do not believe there are any incurable diseases except until the time of our death when God determines we depart.

    I landed here when I searched for 'MitoQ Jack Kruse'. I'm interested as emerson /Wellevate is sending out flyers advertising mitoQ and I've been interested in both forms of CoQ10 for many years. Got interested after I testing low for CoQ10 on a Genova Cardio Ion test. My husband's experience is that 'none' form the one thought to be the more 'storage' form gives him energy where 'nol' the touted for 'energy' one makes hims tired even sleepy...? not clear how this would be. Years later I found that Stephen T. Sinatra, M.D. reported the same results with his patients. https://globalhealing.com/coq10-biopqq-supplement

    Also at first I could not take 'nal' at all gave me over stimulating feelings of racing heart and could only take 'none' at the low dose of 50 mg. I am very sensitive to fillers so I was taking that from Thorne until they stopped producing it. I used various other low dose 'none' forms but finally took a gamble on CoQ10 & Bio PQQ with Shilajit formulated Dr. Edward F. Group III, DC, NP of Global Healing. It has 150 mg of CoQ10, 85 Shilajit and 10 mg of PQQ. It gives me energy but can be too much if I take it daily. I'm never sure of supplements period. I'd rather not take any but challenged and aging I do tend to keep using them.

    I'd seen older Dr.Kruse posts suggesting 'Paleo' folks take CoQ10 and PQQ but not sure we need them if we are applying an optional Epi Paleo Diet and lifestyle.

    If anyone has any experience to share about the Global Healing CoQ10 formula I am taking please let me know.
    Again Matthew, for sharing about mitoQ, I hope wellness for you.
     

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