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Consequences of Any Light After Dark (even Red)

Discussion in 'The Cave' started by Matty_M, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. Matty_M

    Matty_M Purple Angel Club

    Through what mechanisms can non-blue light (red/orange/etc.) alter sleep and circadian rhythm?

    Jack suggested me against using a computer after dark, even with red or "darkroom mode" (inverted colors), even if wearing blue blockers. He also mentioned on FB that no light after dark is truly ideal.

    How detrimental to regeneration is using light like a candle after dark, if wearing 600nm(all red) blue blockers?

    Using non-blue light after dark may appear to extend the waking day, but is it actually taking "time" in the form of health/focus from a later date, by lowering our regeneration?

    Does anyone use no fake light after dark? Have you noticed a signicificant difference in your n=1 between complete darkness after dark vs. candles/red light?

    Is dim red light the least potentially disruptive light for after dark? Again, how, and to what extent can even this hinder regeneration and health?

    Your thoughts are appreciated ;)
    Hilde likes this.
  2. caroline

    caroline Moderator

    We normally don't have any lights on at all - we have our breakers off ...... but the last week we have been watching the Australian open [tennis] on TV - with blue blockers on and only a hour or two. Our sleep is totally screwed.

    When we were camping for 5 weeks there was no TV and only very limited computer use occasionally and almost zero iPhone use. We were outside from daybreak to sunset.
    we both slept like babies and often didn't even need the toilet.

    and - our new blue blockers block way more blue lite than our cheapie ones used to......

    we, generally, don't even use candles - we find them too bright.

    love your new pic Matty!
    seanb4 likes this.
  3. Matty_M

    Matty_M Purple Angel Club

    Thanks. I've had the suspicion that, although blue-blockers protect the eye clock, sleep is still altered by any light after dark.

    I'm curious if anyone knows the mechanism. It seems intuitive that any light will damage sleep quality, but I can't find how. I do remember Jack writing about certain photoreceptors that respond to light intensity, regardless of whether it's blue or something else; maybe this is it.
    seanb4 likes this.
  4. JanSz

    JanSz Gold

    Personally I have a problem with blue-blockers.
    They came as a eye protection from blue light frequencies.
    They are being used often all day long (depriving us from blue light at the right time).
    Protection from blue light (after sundown) is also questionable because we are responding to blue light not only via eyes.

    Use of blue blockers gives feeling of false security.

    Martha Ray likes this.
  5. Rubicon

    Rubicon Avoiding Equilibrium

    I haven't been able to discipline myself to eliminate all screen time & fake light 2-4 hours before bed. However, blocking all blue/green using f.lux for me has had a noticeable subjective effect.

    Through what mechanisms can non-blue light (red/orange/etc.) alter sleep and circadian rhythm?
    I would think the mechanism is photoreceptors in the eye/skin that are sensitive to any light brighter than moon/starlight.
    You might be able to biohack how much of an effect red has by monitoring your sleep quality over time comparing when you're exposed to red light vs complete darkness. I recall Ruben mentioning somewhere that of all the sleep monitors he tried the only one that really worked was a non-contact radar-based device. Perhaps something like this: https://sleep.mysplus.com/

    Using non-blue light after dark may appear to extend the waking day, but is it actually taking "time" in the form of health/focus from a later date, by lowering our regeneration?
    Dr Kruse mentioned in the biohacking mitochondria webinar using a crisper CAS9 kit to biohack your bacteria/yeast. Perhaps there is an application here. This may be a total bs idea...I've got a crisper kit on order, but have not learned much about exactly how to use it yet.
    Matty_M and caroline like this.
  6. Dimitri

    Dimitri New Member

    One thing I started to pay attention to recently was the lux emitted from my light sources, as this study (http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0748730413493862) showed that even 5 lux's of light was enough to suppress melatonin which is pretty dim light. I guess the brightness of lights can have an additive effect in combination with the blue frequencies.

    I found a handy app for the iPhone called LightMeter which measures the lux of your environment using the phone's camera. Granted this is not professional equipment and can't be very accurate but it was good in giving me a general idea of how my lighting was.

    I found that my Rubylux red small bulb went over 5 lux at a little over a foot away from me. My computer monitor went over at about 2 and a half feet. If you have a mac I would recommend RedScreen as it is more effective than f.lux as it makes the screen completely red and lets you dim the screen further than the laptop's built in controls.

    Keep in mind that the lux of a full moon is 1, so yes ideally you would want to use no tech at all.
    Matty_M, Ted, seanb4 and 2 others like this.
  7. Ted

    Ted New Member

    Those are all great ideas. Does anyone else have any good bio hacks for the night time?
  8. Penny

    Penny New Member

    I run a red party bulb (incandescent light) in a lamp which I put next to my books when I read at night - I then pass out - in fact, I sometimes think I sleep better with the bulb on than off - even more weirdly, I have a couple of UV lights on my ceiling fan and sometimes I'll read with that and the red party bulb and I'll be out of the covers and pass out with even the UV bulbs on... it seems to me this is a total circadean mismatch, so I am attempting to just use the red light and turn it off before I fall asleep - I also use black out shades - IMHO, even with blue blockers, your skin is still absorbing fake light from a screen, so media at night is a complete fail -

    One other huge thing - a giant hit of oxytocin seems to work regardless of what the hell light you were exposed to...
    seanb4 likes this.
  9. Ted

    Ted New Member

    How late do people use the Uvalights? I have trouble understanding why we want those on when it is night and there isn't any uv outside.
  10. Matty_M

    Matty_M Purple Angel Club

    It is not "natural" per se, but if you have strictly UVA light (no blue), it does not work on melanopsin. It provides extra UV for the rods and cones to regenerate, which can also be used to regenerate melanopsin during the daytime, and for dopamine & melatonin creation in the eye. If someone lives in a natural environment (outdoors 24/7) this is definitely not necessary, but for someone who is indoors all day at work, it may be better than no UV at all.
  11. WalterNL

    WalterNL New Member

    Alexander Wunsch had some interesting suggestions in his interview with Joseph Cohen. I believe he recommended amber/yellow-tinted glasses as opposed to just using red lights to not have light of just a very narrow frequency band, but I have to listen to it again to be sure.
    Matty_M likes this.
  12. Ted

    Ted New Member

    Thanks for the nice explanation. That makes sense for using the Uva lights during the day, but how close to bedtime should we have them on? Maybe shut them off a couple of hours prior?
  13. Matty_M

    Matty_M Purple Angel Club

    I couldn't say. In Mexico jack suggested that maybe UVA lights are the only safe (won't harm sleep) light to use at night. Still, if there's any blue in the light that you might have a problem.

    This is probably something you have to biohack yourself and see how it goes. Maybe something like two weeks with just the darkness after dark, two weeks with dim red light after dark, and two weeks with UVA after dark
  14. Penny

    Penny New Member

  15. Scompy

    Scompy Gold

    On a side-note Matt, amazing Quantum Thievery blog and very well-written! You've already got a lifetime of wisdom beyond your years...
    Matty_M likes this.
  16. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    I turn them off in winter by 8 PM and in summer I never use them.
    Penny likes this.
  17. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK Gold

    From Niels Finsen's book Phototherapy (1901 translation of an 1894 paper):

    "Engelmann says that the Pelomyxa palustris (a kind of amoeba) contracts strongly when exposed suddenly to light, but that it quickly expands under the influence of a sudden darkness. The same author has pointed out that the rods and cones of the retina shorten in light and lengthen in darkness."
    (Engelmann, Pfluger's Archiv., xxxv., p498)
  18. Sue-UK

    Sue-UK Gold

    I've been thinking about it in terms of photosynthesis (and human photosynthesis). I've seen pictures (light Medicine of the Future by Jacob Liberman) of how chloroplasts stream under natural daylight, another pic done under a light source that lacked UV (many chloroplasts dropped out of their normal streaming pattern and formed a clump at one end of the cell), and a picture of chloroplasts at rest. "Illuminating the chloroplasts through a red filter, which allowed only the longer wavelengths of light through, resulted in some of the chloroplasts remaining in their normal streaming pattern, some totally dropping out of the pattern, and some beginning to shortcut the pattern. If a blue filter was used, allowing only the shorter wavelengths of light through, some of the chloroplasts again remained in their normal pattern, whilst those that were previously short-cutting moved to a different position prior to beginning their short cut. Dr Ott also found that when he added some long-wavelength ultraviolet light to the microscope light source, so that it more closely simulated sunlight, all the chloroplasts returned to their normal patterns. By the end of a normal day, chloroplasts, like people, gradually slow down, come to a stop and then remain motionless during the night time period. This required period of rest allows them to once again respond to light energy and resume their normal streaming pattern the following day. It appears, therefore, that altering plant cellular function by altering the light source affects the normal process of photosynthesis and the resulting cell chemistry."

    The same book also says: "In further studies utilizing pigment epithelial cells from the retina of a rabbit's eye, Dr Ott found that filtering out normal sunlight also caused abnormal cell function. When he used a blue filter, the cells went through all sorts of contortions, while a red filter caused apparent cell-wall weakening, followed by rupturing and the eventual death of the cell."

    So my feeling is that any light after dark could be interfering with the "dual control" switch from "day mode" to "night mode" (perhaps 2 modes trying to cycle at the same time?) and (although I don't know about the intensity or duration of the rabbit experiments) I'm cautious about having my eyes (already have damage to one) too close to an unopposed red light source.

    caroline likes this.
  19. Matty_M

    Matty_M Purple Angel Club

    Thanks Scott!
    Sun Disciple and shah78 like this.
  20. Sun Disciple

    Sun Disciple AKA Paul...That Call Drop'n Canadian

    summer time Its alot easier to get into darkness after sunset. But January, febuary here the sun is rising just before 8 am and setting just after 5 pm. If I were to blackout everything after sunset I would be left with 13 hours of darkness. I can only sleep for 8 hours I have a hard time sleeping in. When im up im up. That leaves 5 hours of darkness. I could meditate for an hour no problem but what to do for the rest? That is assuming I could fit my entire day in winter light hours, tough to do. So Ive been restricting screen time to light hours no problem. Using blue blockers,red rubylux or beeswax candle after sunset. Killing breaker and complete blackout by 730 or 8 and asleep by 9 or 930. Up at 630 rubylux till blue light starts creeping in at 715 and natural light all day. I dont think I could make a complete black out work realistically at the moment.

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