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Bio-Hacking Altitude: Ubiquination one is live

Discussion in 'The EMF Rx' started by Jack Kruse, Feb 19, 2015.

  1. cinnamon

    cinnamon Gold

    Sleeping in water? Like @yewwei.tan speculated about when he was testing his amethyst crystal for emf protection? See how in his pictures at the link, a cup of water appeared to substantially reduce the level of nnEMF from a wifi router.
    nonchalant likes this.
  2. Basically what I'm asking, so my intentions are clear, is: do you recommend living at sea level, or even 'below sea level' (hypobaric pressure, as in some areas of the middle east), and recommend against living at altitude? From that blog, it appears that would be true, but I'm just still not grasping the why.

    That being said, you stated: "And thy do some more interesting things in deep water" and from the above: "it helps when this sleep is at sea level, or in water." The above studies I posted on long lived sea life in high CO2 environments were, well, in deep, cold water.
  3. This is both nice to know and frightening at the same time; so, theoretically we can use water and/or collagen/gel-like substances to mitigate EMF, but.... I'd assume this means EMF is going to the water and altering the hydrogen bonding. Think about what that does in our homes? The water we are drinking daily, then, is more or less 'de-structured', and any fluoride would only add to this.
  4. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    Members got a big leg up........Jan and Feb webinars already gave the goods........so this blog makes a lot of sense when you see the forrest from the trees.
  5. Going to become a member soon, Doc :)
  6. yewwei.tan

    yewwei.tan Gold

    On first thought, this jives pretty well with the mechanistic explanations presented ;). Here is my train of thought, with no guarantee of being correct.

    Fundamental question: What happens at altitude, when the SCN has to accelerate, but can never really keep up with peripheral tissues?

    My answer: Peripheral tissues in turn adapt to respond to a sluggish SCN. They have to adapt to this by trying to speed up their own clocks.

    What does "speeding up of peripheral clocks" mean? This typically means more eager responses to signals coming from the central clock (the brain). They have to:

    (a) increase their sensitivity to signals from the brain
    (b) produce more signalling molecules and oscillations to get the message to the brain


    Increased hormone levels correspond to the peripheral tissues' need to produce more signalling molecules to communicate between themselves and to the brain.

    High T3 levels are not necessarily a good thing. This was discussed in the Tensegrity #5 Thyroid and Hashi's thread -- http://forum.jackkruse.com/index.php?threads/tensegrity-5-and-thyroid-hashi-question.11842/

    I view high T3 as being coupled with high Complex I activity. You could also say that T3 increases in proportion with how coupled the metabolism is.

    A highly uncoupled metabolism will help you get rid of excess protons, which would naturally occur in winter time. A highly coupled metabolism will help you get rid of excess/higher-energy electrons, which would naturally occur in summer time.

    Here is a paper with a chronically cold-exposed Inuit population that lives pretty close to sea level -- http://www.eje-online.org/content/166/3/433.full

    The table here is what is important -- http://www.eje-online.org/content/166/3/433/T3.expansion.html . Take a look at the Settlement data and the Hunter-specific data, since these are the people who are exposed to cold, whereby "Outdoor activity is mandatory in settlements because housing is without tap water, flush toilets and central heating."

    What we see are depressed Thyroid levels across the board, all of TSH, fT3, and fT4.

    There are 2 ways to interpret this:

    (1) That the thyroid is over-active, while there is simultaneous over-consumption of thyroid hormones in excess of what the thyroid can produce. This is the explanation that the researchers favour, and agrees with conventional theories.

    (2) That thyroid hormones are not required in as much supply, either due to increased thyroid sensitivity, or reliance on other pathways for cellular signalling (which is the CT4 explanation)

    Personally, I favour number (2) due to the mechanistic effects of cold, as well as the decreased TSH level.

    Less cancer can be explained by the cell choosing to kill itself (apoptosis) instead of allowing itself to "hang around" and wait for more information. Again, cells are "over-eager" to respond to a lack of good energy and just say "screw this. I'm out!"

    The cost is obviously high cell turnover rates. Some research has accordingly found massive increases in Ubiquitin-Protease activation at altitude (5x normal rate), indicative of lots of protein turnover -- http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11010-011-1210-x


    Thinner population (less fat mass) can be explained by multiple factors:

    (1) More Leptin signalling => again, adipose tissue becoming "overly-eager" to signal
    (2) Fat cell apoptosis => "over-eager" self destruction in the face of potential cold/heat stress (this happens at sea level too, but at altitude it could happen more so)
    (3) More reliance on fast-metabolising substrate and hence more energetic efficiency (at the cost of more ROS, more "signalling noise", and more cell turnover)


    Mitochondrial Density is a typical adaptation to hypoxic conditions.

    I would rather hope to see increased mitochondrial density at high oxygen concentrations for efficient use of aerobic metabolism (which produces a lot more protein-unfolding ATP)


    Increased Longevity is a debatable issue. Here is an example of a study that goes into a broad review of all-cause mortality -- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4113517/

    You gain some and lose some :cool:. Examples:

    - less cancer
    - less CVD
    - generally more exercise among populations at altitude
    - more viral infections => solar flares and viral breakouts go hand-in-hand, and you're closer to cosmic and solar radiation at altitude

    Among the US states, Hawaii is the longest lived. That's a pretty low-lying and seismically active area (increased magnetism).

    However, the life expectancy rates in the US and basically all of the modern world today are more reflective of socio-economic condition rather than actual improvements in health. The top 10 US states in terms of life expectancy are within 1 year of each other. Australia is ranked pretty high at 83 years, despite the people around town looking unhealthy as hell. I'm wary of life expectancy statistics for this reason.


    My personal stance is that being at sea level, eating lots of raw seafood, exercising appropriately, getting grounded a lot, and getting some mild cold exposure (just above freezing at the lowest), is the original and best environment for human existence :cool:

    Inger and bio-fractal-soul-self like this.
  7. Great points, as usual, tanyewwei! I'll try to tackle them as concisely as possible, as I agree with a lot of it, but there are some points that I believe can be adjusted.

    Firstly, T3... well, T3 seems to actually be implicated in fat metabolism more so than carb metabolism, contrary to popular belief, increases uncoupling, and dietary saturated fats (and well-fueled fat metabolism) can increase T3:

    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/28/8/800.long Behavior of body weight under a low carbohydrate, high fat diet

    http://m.fasebj.org/content/15/1/13.full.pdf Triiodothyronine-mediated up-regulation of UCP2 and UCP3 mRNA expression in human skeletal muscle without coordinated induction of mitochondrial respiratory chain genes1 "“T3 is also known to stimulate fatty acid oxidation. The decrease in respiratory quotient observed in our study suggests that T3 treatment induced an increase in fatty acid oxidation.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4539646 Effect of high-fat diet on thermal acclimation with special reference to thyroid activity.

    http://edwardjedmonds.com/wp-conten...3-Thyroid-hormone-and-uncoupling-proteins.pdf Thyroid Hormone and Uncoupling Proteins

    I would suggest reading the work of McGavack (The Thyroid), John C. Lowe, MD (who authored books such as The Metabolic Treatment of Fibromyalgia in addition to papers showing commonly known diseases are simply a metabolic disorder corrected via things like thyroid hormone, saturated fats, etc.) and Broda Otto Barnes, MD, PhD (Heart Attack Rareness in Thyroid Treated Patients). Elevated T3 seems to more so increase uncoupling, fatty acid oxidation, and the promotion of the human organism to higher energy states; all this corroborates with things I posted in my personal journal about Russian research on EMF and magnetism and the further evolution of humanity.

    The Inuit study you mentioned gives me some other ideas. Cold increases TRH from the hypothalamus; their metabolism could've been more yolked to their hypothalamus, high protein induced thermogenesis (some studies indicate they ate over 200 grams of protein each day), and they also frequently ate fish heads and animal thyroids - doubtful they had 'low T3'.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1749462 Effect of cold exposure on the hypothalamic release of thyrotropin-releasing hormone and catecholamines.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8264848 Suckling and cold stress rapidly and transiently increase TRH mRNA in the paraventricular nucleus.

    As you indicated, the longevity issue is debated, that being said, mortality from all cause is typically reduced as well as that from various diseases that are proliferating at an unbelievable rate.

    I'll continue on a second post...
  8. Continued from above....

    Now, you made some other points, points which I highly respect and gave me a different view and caused me to think a bit; that being said, they were highly speculative. The decreases cancer rates and mortality from cancer likely has to do with the simple fact that at altitude, carbon dioxide is increased, and carbon dioxide increases mitochondrial density, uncoupling, thyroid hormones, and stress-resistant genes and transcription factors.

    Most people seem to look at the wrong data sets when it comes to altitude. Firstly, the adaptation phase must be taken into consideration. It's like relating high fat diets to diabetes due to elevated BG after a long time without understanding the dawn phenomenon or physiological insulin resistance, or with decreased performance in keto with adaptation, etc. The truth is relative to what you're looking at and where your looking. I look at altitude from the perspective of CO2. Why, well, here is some info (this is just the tip of the (Co2 filled) iceberg):

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3152150/ Stopping Seizures With Carbon Dioxide

    "In addition, there is evidence that lowering of intracellular pH leads to increased extracellular adenosine, activation of adensosine A1 receptors and a decrease in excitatory synaptic transmission (
    10). This leads to decreased burst firing in a hippocampal slice seizure model. All of these mechanisms play a part in the self-termination of experimental seizures; it is logical that they would be activated more strongly with lowering of cerebral pH from respiratory acidosis.

    The antiepileptic properties of hypercapnia are convincingly demonstrated by the published experimental and clinical studies, and the present study demonstrates its feasibility as a clinical treatment."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9229940 [Carbon dioxide inhibits the generation of active forms of oxygen in human and animal cells and the significance of the phenomenon in biology and medicine].

    http://www.nature.com/bjc/journal/v100/n4/full/6604903a.html Carbogen breathing increases prostate cancer oxygenation: a translational MRI study in murine xenografts and humans

    Accelerated Radiotherapy With Carbogen and Nicotinamide for Laryngeal Cancer: Results of a Phase III Randomized Trial

    Radiotherapy With Concurrent Carbogen and Nicotinamide in Bladder Carcinoma

    http://www.ors.org/Transactions/60/1403.pdf The Effects Of A Transcutaneous CO2 Application On Tibialis Anterior (TA) Muscle In Short Period.

    "A novel transcutaneous CO2 therapy effect increased the expressions of PGC-1alpha,VEGF, and MyoD in vivo in short period. These results suggest that a transcutaneous CO2 therapy in short period may have positive effect on the muscle weakness, and may contribute the decision of the optimal frequency of transucutaneous application of CO2."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3499556/ Transcutaneous Application of Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Induces Mitochondrial Apoptosis in Human Malignant Fibrous Histiocytoma In Vivo

    I'm not sure if you or Dr. Kruse are familiar with Yandell Henderson, PhD, but he devoted his life and career to cardiorespiratory physiology, physiology at high altitude, CO2, medical gases, and more. He believed that CO2 was primordial, and O2 was not! Here is some brief info, though I have a large document with his studies saved somewhere: http://www.nasonline.org/publications/biographical-memoirs/memoir-pdfs/henderson-yandell.pdf

    By the way, if you look at the above, it clearly shows PGC-1alpha increases. You know what else increases PGC-1a? Ketosis and PQQ and CT...
  9. Dr. Kruse has been speaking a lot about environmental O2, O3, EMFs and hydrogen bonding in water, and how this all impacts phytoplankton, honey bees, and more. I honestly give him soooo much respect for all of this, and I truly wish that people start listening to him, because most don't even realize the environmental and human collapse that can ensue over a long period of time from nn-EMF, fluoride, etc. causing environmental problems. But guess what helps save the day? CO2, not more O2:

    People who grow cannabis are now beginning to use CO2 to cause rapid, prolonged growth in cannabis plants, that grow more on less, while being more potent, nutritious, etc:

    "In some cases, the additional carbon fixed during CO2-enrichment is invested in antioxidative compounds, rather than enzymes. In the study of Idso et al. (2002), for example, a 75% increase in atmospheric CO2 concentration boosted the vitamin C concentration within the juice of sour oranges by 5% over a five-year period. In addition, Estiarte et al. (1999) reported that a 180-ppm increase in the air's CO2 content increased the foliar concentrations of flavonoids, which protect against UV-B radiation damage, in field-grown spring wheat by 11 to 14%. And it is interesting to note that the increased consumption of such plant material - naturally enriched with antioxidative compounds as a consequence of the historical rise in the air's CO2 content - may have played a role in the observed decline in human mortality rates over the period 1950-1994 (Tuljapurkar et al., 2000). (...) So what did they find? They determined, first of all, that strawberries had higher concentrations of ascorbic acid (AsA) and glutathione (GSH) when grown under enriched CO2 conditions. In going from ambient to +300 ppm and +600 ppm CO2, for example, AsA concentrations rose by 10 and 13%, respectively, while GSH concentrations increased by 3 and 171%, respectively. They also learned that "an enriched CO2 environment resulted in an increase in phenolic acid, flavonol, and anthocyanin contents of fruit." For nine different flavonoids, for example, there was a mean concentration increase of 55 ± 23% in going from the ambient atmospheric CO2 concentration to +300 ppm CO2, and a mean concentration increase of 112 ± 35% in going from ambient to +600 ppm CO2.

    This is what increasing CO2 does, similar to increasing the DC current of tissues with DHA and CT:

    Those are just some images from some case studies from co2bath.com which outlines the research of Dr's. Iriki, Matsuo, Toriyama, and others. Co2 medicine for regeneration, longevity, etc. has been something that was studied in Russia and Central Europe, and to an extent, Japan, for a long time and is often used, many times alongside cold baths and/or cryotherapy (look up nauheim baths). In fact, some physicians have found that Co2 enhances all oxidative therapies:

    "CNS sedation effect. Carbonic acid is natural in our body (...) augmenting the effect of ozone and other modalities" he goes on to explain how it basically makes oxidative therapies offer 2x the benefit. Carbonic acid is naturally formed in our bodies when things are running smoothly, and this has massive effects in the brain.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2015
  10. Linz

    Linz Gold

    I think NN emf is the problem - adding too much energy especially at altitude. Look at the thread above this one , What happens to CO2 when EMF is added? Some of your quoted altitude studies were done on populations in 1970s and 90s. Big changes in EMF now.
  11. yewwei.tan

    yewwei.tan Gold

    @bio-fractal-soul-self -- First off, we need to clarify philosophies :p

    The purpose of my posts are always first and foremost to generate practically testable hypotheses. ie: any person can take the conclusions, run an experiment on themselves, and figure out effects.

    When practically testable hypotheses cannot be immediately generated, I try to search for logical mechanistic explanations for effects. ie: I can say if conditions A to Z hold, then effects A1 to Z1 will occur. I try to imagine myself as creator of the universe, and try to match plausible mechanistic effects to observed reality.

    Thyroid Hormones

    Those studies you cite show that adding extra thyroid hormones increases uncoupling. The message of CT6 (http://jackkruse.com/cold-thermogenesis-6-the-ancient-pathway/), which you also brought up, is that if you can upregulate TRH directly, then there is reduced need for T3 to produce said uncoupling effects.

    The measurements of Thyroid levels in the Inuit population directly definitely show lower Thyroid levels across the board compared to other populations. Whether this effect is from the cold, or via some other mechanism, doesn't really change the fact that they have lower thyroid levels than someone like me :p

    Practically speaking, the goal is to get to a position whereby we can decide how we want to:

    (a) use thyroid hormone levels as a diagnostic measure of health
    (b) forcefully manipulate thyroid levels

    Those are steps for a practioner to make, and require further context of the patient. This is where focusing too much on thyroid becomes complex, because there are so many other dependent variables.

    My personal approach with my own context has been to focus on the higher level redox potential improvements (because my thyroid is not broken), and let the thyroid do as it naturally will.


    As @Linz mentioned, CO2 + EMF causes some different effects. There was a whole thread here about that. A good post to start with -- http://forum.jackkruse.com/index.ph...o2-is-added-with-emf.10509/page-2#post-125528

    Another important post -- http://forum.jackkruse.com/index.ph...when-co2-is-added-with-emf.10509/#post-121321

    Those posts talk about CO2 and it's effect on the ocean. The effects on water's EZ are basically the same, so all the principles of effects on acidity, subsequent EZ reduction, and decreased charge potential, are all relevant in blood serum, cell cytoplasm, and mitochondrial micelle.

    The mechanistic effect of increased CO2 concentrations in my opinion has got to do with increasing the Bohr Effect, which allows for paramagnetic hemoglobin to dump its Oxygen at the places where CO2 is highest -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohr_effect

    That would imply that CO2 is another signalling compound to get electrons where they need to go :D

    Like Jack said, effects of CO2 increase and pseudo-hypoxia are independent of each other.

    Or put differently, the best case scenario is to have lots of O2 plus lots of CO2 to help dump that O2 in the places that need it. Achieving this at sea level is probably ideal, for the reasons stated in the blog post (more O2, less nn-EMF, less cosmic rays, less requirement for SCN to speed up)

    Note: As possibly a separate effect of CO2, this post alluded to the fact that CO2 + cold works to condense cells (good thing, brings things closer for more quantum mechanical effects) -- http://forum.jackkruse.com/index.php?threads/a-few-questions-on-ppp-and-fat.8955/#post-102586

    I need to study this effect more to comment on how it is affected :D

    Last edited: Feb 20, 2015
    dantothep, Lahelada and Linz like this.
  12. Josh

    Josh Gold

  13. Going to check the thread; good point. That being said, the nauheim baths and Co2 baths and Co2 inhalations for cancer and seizures are being used now, in 2015, in areas with lots of EMF, yet they still have positive effects. So, if CO2+EMF = bad news, why would people be healing diabetic foot ulcers in weeks to months with no need to continue treatment, stopping seizures in literally seconds, panic attacks in days, and even curing psychoses permanently? In fact, CO2 is used to cure mountain sickness, often times better than o2....

    @yewwei.tan: great points! I love how you organize your posts, by the way. Anyhow, you gave me a lot to think about. I hope it is clear that in my initial post I did mention that when it comes to cancer, there are confounding variables at high altitude, for instance, there are tons of nuclear reactors in certain low altitude states, which I'd suspect generate a lot of EMF. This gets me thinking about some of your points though, especially utilization of CO2 at sea level to maximize the effects of CO2 and it's ability to allow oxygenation of tissues, vasodilation, PGC-1a expression, etc. As evidenced by a lot of different researchers, not all associated with the CO2 science group, many plants (including phytoplankton) and animals thrive in high CO2 environments, even high Co2 low O2 environments. And by thrive, I don't mean live, I truly mean thrive - for instance, biomass increasing by 205% and nutrient density of food increasing by 17% in terms of some nutrients (see the first video I posted - CO2: Breath of Life). Co2 can be increased by artificial means, such as generators (which can be made very cheaply), inhalation of pure CO2 or CO2+O2, rebreathing, pranayama, and more. Couple this with increased magnetism at sea level, and maybe there will be some interesting synergy. Check this:

    "Carbon Dioxide is, in fact, a more fundamental component of living matter than oxygen. Life probably existed on earth for millions of years prior to the carboniferous era, in an atmosphere containing a much larger amount of carbon dioxide than at present. There may have even been a time when there was no free oxygen available in the air. Even now, such animals as ascaris will live and be active in an atmosphere of hydrogen and entirely without oxygen. In vertebrates, the process of muscular contraction is entirely anaerobic. A frog's muscle will contract effectively and repeatedly under suitable stimulation in an atmosphere of pure nitrogen. In contraction, a muscle produces lactic acid, partly by reconversion into sugar. In other words, oxygen is not one of the primary factors in muscular work (...) Another natural, but very obstructive misconception is that oxygen and carbon dioxide are so far antagonistic in the blood a gain of one necessarily involves a corresponding loss of the other. On the contrary, although each tends to raise the pressure and thus promote the diffusion of the other, the 2 gases are held and transported in the blood by different means; oxygen is carried by hemoglobin in the corpuscles, while carbon dioxide is combined with alkali in the plasma. A sample of blood may be high in both gases, or low in both gases. Moreover, under clinical low oxygen and low carbon dioxide - anoxemia and acapnia - generally occur together. Each of these abnormal states tend to induce and intensify each other. Therapeutic increase of carbon dioxide, by inhalation of this gas diluted in air, is often the effective means of improving the oxygenation of the blood and tissues (...) "On the other hand, present knowledge indicates that carbon dioxide is an absolutely essential component of protoplasm. It is one of the factors in the balance of alkali and acid for the maintenance of the normal pH of the tissues. Acapnia, that is diminution of the normal content of carbon dioxide, involves therefore, a disturbance of one of the fundamental conditions of life." "These observations upon the circulation showed also that in animals reduced to a state of shock the carbon dioxide of the blood, or as it now be generally termed, the "alkaline reserve," is greatly reduced. This experimental result was later confirmed by the observations of Cannon upon wounded soldiers during the war."
    "Catatonia.---Finally, mention may be made of the extraordinary observations reported by the late A.S. Lovenhart, in which he found that inhalation of carbon dioxide to cases of catatonia induced a temporary restoration of intelligence and mental responsiveness."

    These are just some simple examples from Yandell Henderson, PhD, Cyclopedia of Medicine. I have 46 pages of it in a file if anyone would like to read a lotttt more interesting stuff. I'm having trouble posting it, but can send it in an email or something. Interestingly, I know a man who has been experimenting with CO2 for a few years, such as putting his limbs in bags filled with CO2, breathing CO2, etc. He just recently invented a machine that allows you to breath CO2 enriched air while sleeping, and to use some knobs and control panels to adjust the amount of CO2 and O2 you want. He may let me borrow it if I can drive out to meet him in person. Other people that I know that have used this through him have had very sudden improvements in OSA, which makes sense since carbonic acid anhydrase inhibitors and T3 sometimes improve this condition.
  14. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_elevation Unfortunately, the states I've lived in aren't so elevated, only about 1200 ft. Would moving to, say, Delaware, near the Gulf of Mexico, or the lower regions of Arizona, California, or Colorado, where I can be between sea level and 400-600 ft make a difference at all?
  15. nonchalant

    nonchalant Silver

    Great blog, Jack. A couple hundred years ago, when cells experienced massive oscillations and vibrations, they released calcium in order to stiffen the cell membranes. Because every cell knew that the vibrations were caused by physical exertion, like running, or overactive ion pumps on the membrane. Those pumps, when they operate, create ripples in the membrane, and those vibrations are spread throughout the cell, and areas adjacent to the cell. But could massive vibrations disturb water structure, even 200 years ago?

    Environmental vibrations are normally a good thing, and good tensegrity should take full advantage of them. But dehydration would make excessive vibrations intolerable, I suppose. Like when we are low on DHA and sunlight becomes intolerable, instead of a benevolence. Nice to know that our ancestors bodies had a backup plan for times when they crossed a desert.

    If cell membrane function is depressed by calcium efflux, then the ion channels would be silenced. So, for neurons, I can see how neurotransmitters are depressed.
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2015
    Inger likes this.
  16. nonchalant

    nonchalant Silver

    Stiffening the cell membrane is ok for daytime, when we are moving around. But at night, when we have all those great hormones like melatonin and prolactin running around, things need to be still, so cell membranes are flexible, so those ion channels, DNA, and other cell structures can make beautiful music together.
    Inger likes this.
  17. Inger

    Inger Silver

    I like this :)
    I live 4 meters above sea level here, I just checked on the map. Yay :) maybe why I feel so great :) very easy to get seafood here too, wild caught and regional stuff.....
    and it is not expensive at all.....
    bio-fractal-soul-self likes this.
  18. Jack Kruse

    Jack Kruse Administrator

    remember this as you read the next few blogs........lots of boom moments are coming. Book it.
    bio-fractal-soul-self likes this.
  19. nonchalant

    nonchalant Silver

    I think I understand another reason why it helps to 'sleep' on Jack's blogs. You can't get all the good vibrations of understanding going if your cells are girding up to fight the cacophony of EMF.
  20. JMO

    JMO Gold

    Quite a few years ago, we went on vacation and stayed at a friends cabin that was located on one of the highest passes near Breckenridge CO. We were so sick with vomiting, headaches and just felt like crap. We couldn't sleep at night. First time we ever came home from vacation early. Afterwards they told us that they always got sick for a few days until they got use to the altitude...even their dog got sick.

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